Bagpipes in the war

[East_TN_Rebel]

Were bagpipes used by either side during the war? If so, does anyone have any details on what units may have had them?

Thanks,

Don McLain
East_TN_Rebel
(Ancestors were in the 31st East Tennessee Regiment/39th Tennessee Mounted Infantry. CSA)

[markj]

Re: Bagpipes in the war

Greetings,

The obvious possibilities would be any Scots-themed regiments raised during the war. One in particular is the 79th New York "Cameron Highlanders":

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/6579/history.html

Another unit might be the 12th Illinois "First Scotch":

http://www.rootsweb.com/~ilcivilw/reg_html/012_reg.htm

Indeed, during my periodic newspaper searches I uncovered an interesting article discussing the presentation of a unique Scots-motif "Thistle" flag to the 12th Illinois in late 1861.

There were likely other such regiments but, from what I've seen, there are far more "Rebel bagpipers" today than there ever were during the war. Better to stay away from that stuff unless you can definitely prove it. You might also want to check such works as Wm. L. Burton's "Melting Pot Soldiers" and Ella Lonn's "Foreigners in the Confederacy" and "Foreigners in the Union Army and Navy." I would be particularly careful in using Burton's book--it's a reasonably good overview but some of his material (at least that dealing with ethnic German units) is either debatable or even wrong.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[10TnVI]

Re: Bagpipes in the war

Before someone else reacts more violently-
there are no documented instances of the bagpipes being used in the American Civil War by any unit, north or south. It just didn't happen. No unit was 'piped into battle' Not even the 79th. Period- A bagpiper at a CW battle reenactment/LH is about as period appropriate as a full suit of plate armor on a brigade commander-sure there were both plate armors and brigade commanders- but not ever together on a CW battlefield.

[markj]

Re: Bagpipes in the war

Hi Leland,

>"there are no documented instances of the bagpipes being used in the >American Civil War by any unit, north or south. It just didn't happen."

And your documented evidence would be.....?

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I would even tend to agree that units were not "piped into battle," but to say that Scots-themed regiments didn't use bagpipes in, say, parades or at reviews seems to be a bit of a stretch. You'll have to come up with more convincing evidence than a flat assertion.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[markj]

Re: Bagpipes in the war

Greetings,

Here are two specific regimental bibliographies for the 79th NYVI and the 12th Illinois:

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/Bibliographies/CivilWarUnitBibliographies/ny/inf/79inf.doc

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usamhi/Bibliographies/CivilWarUnitBibliographies/il/inf/12inf.doc

These should provide additional details regarding possible use of bagpipes in Scots-themed regiments.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[va-yank]

Re: Bagpipes in the war

Too bad the archives aren't available yet. This issue was covered pretty thoroughly in a previous thread. Those earlier posts re the 79th NY provided details of their full dress parade before leaving for the front. They marched to a brass band supposedly.

My guess is that very few Americana at the time of the mid 19th century had ever heard a bag pipe, and virtually none had played on these shores. It would be interesting to ask what evidence there is to refute this. I am sure there must be some exception, and that information might be interesting in itself. Can anyone provide any accounts of bagpipes being played in the U.S. before or at anytime during the American Civil War?

Fred, please sign your posts with your full name. The auto-signature feature in the user profile is the best way to do this. mc

[ElizabethClark]

Re: Bagpipes in the war

Go back to the Revolutionary War and the French & Indian war, and you'll find Highland (British) regiments complete with pipers. Several regiments were stationed here in the States (before they were the states)... including the 72nd Seaforth, and the 74th as well, if I recall my husband's books correctly. the 72nd had men stationed in Canada during the American Civil War as well... though none ever "invaded" southward.

It's important to remember that quite a lot of the Scots immigrants to the US just after 1745 were political prisoners, refugees, etc... and the Proscription Act covered them: owning or making tartan, wearing kilts, playing bagpipes, and several other culturally related activities were punishable--quite severely punishable.

While such activities were overlooked more often in America (how often is the King's man going to inspect the backwoods of Cape Fear??), pipes and other niceties aren't likely to be seen outside of heavily concentrated Scots areas of the US.

I seem to recall something about there having been a piper at the Alamo (which would be a good reason for the Mexicans to keep attacking, if he wasn't tuned properly in all that arrid land.)

So, yes, pipes had been used in war previous to the CW... but their use in the CW (for battle or "hanging around camp) is not supportable to my mind (and I adore pipes, married a piper.) I would expect to see their use at Scottish social club parties (like St. Andrew's Day balls), but not many other places.

From a practical standpoint, trying to haul pipes into battle conditions is like dressing a three-year-old in a snow suit in July. It's possible, but not pleasant for anyone.

[rebyank]

Re: Bagpipes in the war

There were many scottish clubs and organisations in chicago before and during the civil war. these clubs probably would have had plenty of people who had and played pipes. This is the area where the 12th ILL. came from. The 12th's commanding officer, John Mac Arthur, was a member of the scottish cultural society, and was president of the Illinois St. Andrews Society shortly after the war. A good chunk of the men in the 12th ILL. had been part of the Chicago Highland Guard, a militia unit before the war that wore kilts and feather bonnets. So I think that there is a very good chance that somebody in the 12th Illinois had and played pipes at some point during the war. I can't say either way as to the 79th NY, because I know nothing much about them, but I've been researching the 12th for 3 years.

Ian Baker

[markj]

Re: Bagpipes in the war

Greetings,

I found these 18th Century American newspaper references to bagpipers--they may be of some interest. It appears that even some blacks were handy with the instrument:

http://www.polisci.ucla.edu/faculty/boneill/runaway.txt

This article discusses the post-"Forty-five" Proscription Act:

"Rowland Berthoff. "Celtic Mist over the South." The Journal of Southern History, Vol. 52, No. 4. (Nov., 1986), pp. 523-546.

It indicates that the Proscription Act was never fully enforced or obeyed and proscriptions on Highland dress and bagpiping were effectively revoked in Scotland even before the end of the American Revolution.

I had enough time to look on the "Making of America" (U of MI site) and found the following interesting work incorporating a description of George Washington's Inaugural Parade in New York:

Author: Griswold, Rufus Wilmot, 1815-1857.
Title: The republican court; or, American society in the days of Washington. By Rufus Wilmot Griswold.
Publication date: 1856.

It indicates that "...the Highland Infantry [marched in the procession], in full Highland uniform, with bagpipes" (page 139).

The above, of course, doesn't necessarily prove anything in regards to Civil War-era piping. However, I would certainly invite you-uns to investigate the Cornell and U of MI "Making of America" sites further since I saw numerous potential "hits" dealing with antebellum and wartime use of bagpipes.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[10TnVI]

Re: Bagpipes in the war

Tough job- document a lack of period documentation?I thought it worked the other way around.
I have not found them mentioned in the OR's, any regimental or individual history or newspaper account I've read or in any secondary source I have perused.
As someone below said, this matter was heavily discussed in the past and hopefully the archives can be salvaged.
So- Mark- refute my statement if you can- find documention for the use of bagpipes by any unit on either side during the American Civil War- Accepting that they existed is a given and that some people knew how to play them is a given, prove their use in military units during the war-

No rancour felt or intended
Leland

Hi Leland,

>"there are no documented instances of the bagpipes being used in the >American Civil War by any unit, north or south. It just didn't happen."

And your documented evidence would be.....?

I'm not saying you're wrong, and I would even tend to agree that units were not "piped into battle," but to say that Scots-themed regiments didn't use bagpipes in, say, parades or at reviews seems to be a bit of a stretch. You'll have to come up with more convincing evidence than a flat assertion.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Yellowhammer]

Re: Bagpipes in the war

I am only aware of one reference to a Civil War regiment using pipes. When the 79th NY paraded through NYC on their way to the "seat of war," they hired the services of the pipe band of a local Scottish club to play for them.

In 1862, regimental documents for the 79th refer to a band but all indications point to a standard Federal brass band. This group was disbanded later in the war.

Mr. Jaeger poses a much more interesting question dealing with reenacting philosophy. Does something have to be documented to be true? The obvious answer, is no. However, the safer answer, in matters of authenticity, is yes.

Personally, I think bagpipes at any Civil War event, Scottish regiment or no, are undocumentable and therefore shouldn't be allowed.

John Stillwagon

[Justin Runyon]

Re: Bagpipes in the war

I have to agree with John on this one. We covered this last year and I posted extensively as the 79th was a particular are of research for me a few years ago. I have one of the few copies I know of of the complete regemental history published in the 1880's so let me say this...

At this time, Myself, or no one that I know of has ever uncovered a period reference to the pipes being used in american military units during the CW. Of particular bagpipe references I know of two things that may confuse some persons or may have led to the horrible bagpipe abundence.

1. It is a fact that the 79th NY was piped out of the city in May of 61 by the pipe band of the New York Caledonian society. This was a civilian "club" and did not follow them to the seat of the war, out of NY county, or even probably a few hundred yards beyond Broadway.

2. The regimental History makes one more reference to Bagpipes. I paraphrase. Some guy, unknown to any member of the unit, just showed up at some pint during the war with pipes and wearing the kilts along with his civilian clothing. So horrible was he apparently that he was run out of camp and never heard from again..

So in a nut shell, if documentation shows up, thats great, right now there just isnt any though.

[Yellowhammer]

Re: Bagpipes in the war

"New York Caledonian society!"

Yes! I was racking my brain and couldn't remember that!

Thanks,

John Stillwagon
Moderator

[markj]

Re: Bagpipes in the war

Hi Leland,

Well, obvious places to look for confirmation would be the New York and Chicago papers. Here at Purdue, we have complete wartime runs of the "Times," as well as the "Tribune," so I can probably look in them as time permits. Of course, there were many other New York sheets including the "Sun" and the "Tribune," not to mention Chicago dailies such as the Democratic "Times." I just wish we still had the searchable NY Times database: We got a trial subscription and it was fantastic--pulled up a lot of heretofore unknown items.

Again, I'm not per se doubting what you say; my concern was more about your extremely broad declaration that bagpipes were "never" used at any time or place. "Never," as we both know, is a dangerous word because a thesis based on "never" essentially collapses if one even finds a single period example contradicting it. Other than your reference to the "OR," I'm still hazy as to what primary and secondary sources you've perused. However, please note that I actually agree with you in noting that, by and large, bagpipes at modern day reenactments are as historically accurate as playing "Ashokan Farewell" at an "authentic ball."

I guess a satisfactory answer to this question also depends on how we define "unit." Should the wartime NYSM (aka National Guard, State of New York), for example, be counted? Although NGSNY regiments were not front-line regiments, they were activated for field duty at various points during the war.

Cordially,

Mark Jaeger

[hardtack1864]

Re: Bagpipes in the war

What about Irish pipes? Just a thought.