FRock

[20thMainerCampaigner]

Hello,

I'm in serious need of a new frock coat. I really would like to avoid having to pay $400-$500 bucks. I was on the C&D Jarnigan website and looking at their clothes, I know their reputation isn't very good, but I bought some leather gear from them and it was very nice. The text said the coat was quilted and everything and copied from an original in their colletion. I'm kind of worried purchasing a Frock there isn't a good idea. Can anyone tell me about their frock coats(coloring, quilting, tail pockets, hooks and eyes on the collar and tails)? I know most of their clothes aren't exactly museum quality.

Thanks,
Pvt. Courtney Micker(I know it's a girl's name)

[K Bartsch]

Re: FRock

Welcome to the A-C Courtney!

There's an old English proverb that goes, "Don't be penny wise and pound foolish." I mention that only to illustrate a simple fact of life in this end of the hobby. Most of us started out buying items which were "close enough" and later replaced them at considerable expense. We were "penny wise" in that we thought we were saving some pennies (indeed even LOTS of pennies) in the beginning by going with garments purchased through the big mainstream houses. We were "pound foolish" because we ended up spending more in the long run in that we not only wasted money on an item with which we quickly became dissatisfied and we ultimately paid still more for a quality replacement.

All that simply to say, if you can't afford a good frock now, then I respectfully suggest you wait until you can.

Cordially,

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: FRock

Hallo Herr Courtney!

Welcome to the AC Forum!

The AC Forum strives to list makers and vendors of clothing and gear with an earned reputation for authenticity and quality of their offerings as they relate to a number of factors such as CW era materials, patterns and forms, construction methods and techniques, and their relationship/comparison to the actual original items.

With the broad umbrella of the Civil War Community running a gamut and gauntlet from F/M/C/P/H/A and many shades and levels in between each section, there are makers and vendors that produce products geared and more appropriate for those different Mental Pictures and levels of interests, applications, and events.

I might would suggest that you take a few minutes and review the AC Forum "list" of approved vendors. If you do not find the "name" you have a question about, it is usually not there for a very good reason (and that reason being largely that they to not provide for, or are not a service, to or for the "authentic community."

And, indeed, as Herr Bartsch shared, most all of us have learned the "Hard Way" about the "False Economy" of Sutler Row and Run-of-the-Mill, or Brand X
wares. Meaning, a pair of Sutler Row shoes do not cost say $90. They actually will cost one say $230 when an "authentic" pair could have cost only say $140.
That is because the "bogus" shoes will either fall apart, or their owner will find that he has learned, progressed, evolved and moved on in a few months or a year to where he requires more historically accurate or "authentic shoes". (If not just simply replacement shoes when the Frankenstein Boots fall apart... [my best/worst actual story is a Mainstream pard whose shoes lasted 20 minutes before the soles fell apart..]).
And now one must spend $140 on top of the wasted expense of $90 for a total of $230 when one could have spent only the $140 to begin with. (Or if one shopped on say the AC Forum want-ads, one might have had to pay much less than even the $140 if not closer to the $90 to begin with for a gentle worn pair or even new pair from someone else).
I know we are talking about dress coats here and not shoes. But, substitute ANY item of clothing or article of gear one likes...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Waster of Thousands of Dollars Himself Over the Years Mess

And... Strive to become an Educated Consumer. If I had a dollar for every time I heard a Sutler Row, Run-of-the-Mill, or Brand X vendor claim that an item or article was "copied from an original" I could likely buy a company premium/authentic dress coats. IMHO, when one cannot determine whether that "copied from an original" means 100%, 90%, 50% 10%, or 1% and WHY- one is in grave danger of being separated from his hard-earned money very quickly! (When "approved vendors," (quality vendors) make that claim they can back it up- and many even go as far as to compare their wares
side-by-side (as it should be) with the "originals" they were copied from (NEVER compare repro's with repro's- ALWAYS compare repro's with originals!)!! Or, they will be more than happy to discuss their products with an inquiring customer!!!)

[DougCooper]

Re: FRock

A federal frock is a once in a career buy, so it might as well be a authentic, i.e., correct in materials, pattern and construction. In the old days, we waited patiently for one to be made, shelled out the big bucks...and unless we got out of the hobby and sold it, or gained or lost a lot of weight, we still have it.

Today, the part that has changed is the waiting - there are two excellent vendors on the AC approved list that are actually making them as we speak, so the wait is nil. And wonder of wonders, the price has changed very little over the last few years for the best.

Using Curt's real cost methodology, you could spend $700 for one - $200 for the incorrectly made frock out of a poor grade of wool, that looks very little like the real deal....then pay the $500 for the good one.

The hidden costs of not going authentic early are: missed authentic events (coat not acceptable), guilt, shame, delay, possible price increases and the numerous "I told you so's" that will no doubt ensue :wink_smil

Seriously, good frocks are the single most under-priced garment anybody makes, considering it will last forever if taken care of and the complexity and materials cost.

The economics are inescapable. As Keith says, if you can't afford it now, wait if you have too, sell something, use lay-away, etc. It will be worth it.

[K Bartsch]

Re: FRock

Courtney,

And to make matters worse, its ethically tough to justify attempts to sell to others all the stuff bought before you knew better. :tounge_sm

Fortunately for all of us here, the collective vigilance of our happy little A-C family is always quick to smite any such attempts. For me, that is just one of the great aspects of this site. While the caveat emptor principle, like the laws of physics, cannot be suspended, I submit one can buy with confidence here -- either from the approved vendors or from individual members selling used goods.

You might do well to post over on "wanting to buy" your desire for a new federal frock. Folks gain and lose weight. Folks leave the hobby. Who knows, someone may have a nice one which no longer fits or simply no longer need which you could pick up at a bargain price.

BTW, I wouldn't have ever thought of trying to tell Courtney Hodges his was a "girls" name :wink_smil

Courtney Hodges

Good luck with your frock coat quest!

[JimConley]

Re: FRock

Just to echo what has already been pointed out, you should shy yourself from C&D Jarnagin garments. As the others have mentioned, there is a pretty solid list of vendors approved here on the forums. I suggest shopping around at reputable vendors' sites and go from there. You'll be happy you spent the extra money for something you know to be correct and can enjoy that few hundred dollars worth for many years. My personal suggestion would be to check out these two greats:
County Cloth/Charlie Childs
C.J. Daley Historical Reproductions

By the way, since you did mention you would like to save money, I believe that Mr. Daley has his US frocks on sale this month as you will notice by clicking the link I have provided...happy hunting.

[DixieLand1859]

Re: FRock

If your looking to save money on a high quality frock and don’t need one right away, consider browsing the Buy / Sell folder on this site. I was able to find a great ************ Confederate Frock on this site awhile back for far less than retail price. Just something to keep in mind....

[mark11]

Re: FRock

I just purchased a Frock from Joe Hoffman the Skillet Licker and it is a thing of beauty. It is well worth the money, and it only took THREE days to get here, and I live in Arizona! My advice is save your money and buy what is quality and AUTHENTIC. Recently I have had two pards buy from Jarnigan and the quality was less than acceptable, to be kind. For my money you cannot go wrong with Joe and his products, he is a class guy and a pleasure to do business with.
Mark Robeson

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Dress Coat

Hallo Kameraden!

The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten. ~ John Ruskin

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[20thMainerCampaigner]

Re: FRock

Thbaks for the replies, I hate to buy things without seing them. I deal a lot with Joe Hoffmann, mostly Nick ************ stuff. My problem is outgrow pretty much everything in a year except my gear. It almost made me sick when I put on my J.T. martin a year after I bought it, and it didn't fit. I always buy things big. Well anyway I think i'll wait until I slow down and either buy a Chris Daley or a Nick ************. My old one was a sutler row garment that almost made me laugh when I looked at it's authenticity.

Thanks,
Pvt. Courtney Micker

[rebyank]

Re: FRock

Pards, I dearly want a nice fed frock coat to. But if I have to spend $525 for a coat, I'm not gonna want to tramp through the mud in it, I probably wouldn't let it out of the house. If, and I mean IF, I had $525, I'd buy a musket, something that would last longer.

You have to wonder when the coats and jackets in your hobby get more expensive than weapons. I bought a repro enfield, bayonet, and cleaning kit for $150 less than it would cost for ONE of CJ Dayly's frock coats.

I'm already poor, how in the hell can I afford to be authentic when people keep charging more and more to sew a damn coat togeather. :baring_te

people complain about mainstreamers not wanting to become authentics, it's not they don't want to, they can't bloody afford it, and I can't either.

my 2 cents

[CJDaley]

Re: FRock

Mr. Baker,
Since you brought me up by name, I thought I'd respond to your complaint.
When I'm buying a product from another vendor, I have to decide "Is this item overpriced, or is it out of my budget". I would argue that our frock coats are not overpriced, but they are out of some people's budgets.

I'm already poor, how in the hell can I afford to be authentic when people keep charging more and more to sew a damn coat togeather. :baring_te

You said that I keep charging more and more for frocks, when in fact, they've gone down in price over the last few years. I originally charged $585, then lowered the price to $525, but this month they are on sale for $485.00. That's $100.00 that I've lowered that price, so how can they be getting more and more expensive?

You have to wonder when the coats and jackets in your hobby get more expensive than weapons. I bought a repro enfield, bayonet, and cleaning kit for $150 less than it would cost for ONE of CJ Dayly's frock coats.

Well, I would argue that our coats are WAY more authentic than your Italian imported musket. You don't have to 'defarb' our coats, take the modern markings off, remove the blueing, buy new barrel bands, replace the lockplate, and reshape the stock to make our coats authentic. You do have to do all that to bring your musket up to authentic standards and as such, you'd have to double the price of your musket.

Our coats are out of some people price range, but with wool that runs us $75.00 per yard, lining that's $15.00 per yard, trim, padding and buttons we are looking at nearly $360.00 in materials. Add shipping and credit card charges and that leaves me with about $100.00 to actually make the coat. If each coat takes me a day and a half to produce (sometime more depending on size), then I'm looking at making about as much as a clerk at McDonalds.

These coats have tons of hand work (including buttonholes) and to produce these coats for a cheaper price would mean to skimp on the details and that's not what I want do to and it's not what you've come to expect from me.

I hope this helps to explain some of the pricing that goes into a garment that I sell and gives everyone an insider's view of the problems involved in keeping prices low.

If anyone has any questions, comments, complaints or concerns, please feel free to contact me at anytime.

PS:

Pards, I dearly want a nice fed frock coat to. But if I have to spend $525 for a coat, I'm not gonna want to tramp through the mud in it, I probably wouldn't let it out of the house. If, and I mean IF, I had $525, I'd buy a musket, something that would last longer.

As to wearing the coat in the mud, when Chris Schreiber made my sword belt I told him it was too nice to wear out in the field. He told me: “Play with your toys now, or someone else will play with your toys when your dead and gone”. An excellent piece of advice and since then I’ve never hesitated to get mud and dirt on my gear no matter how nice or how much I paid.

[rebyank]

Re: FRock

Mr. Daley,

I appologize for my remarks about your coats. I guess I'm just singing out the poor mans gripe. I know I'd be singing a different tune if I was a rich boy :cry_smile

hopefully someday I'll own one of those coats.



Ian Baker
Ain't got a damn penny mess.

[BrianHicks]

Re: FRock

Chris,

Your response to Ian's post was well thought out, and calmly worded. And while I to am handicapped with a limited budget (Military Retirees...particularly enlisted ones... don't bring in loads of cash when living solely on their retired pay) I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of the Federal Dress Coat I have on order.

With regards to the high cost of some items... well... that's why you budget for your purchases, and buy a few items at a time. Fortunately, Mr. Daley is gracious enough to offer a lay-away plan with his items. And as previously stated, that Italian repro Rifle that was bought for $150.00 less than the cost of the Dress Jacket, will in the end, have cost you for more than the jacket once you've gotten it to a good Authentic condition.

When Vendor's are actually making less than $8.00 or $9.00 an hour for the labor they actually put into manufacturing their goods, we are in no position to gripe about the cost of those items when they are out of the box, some of the best made Garments available for our hobby.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: FRock

As Mr. Daley points out, there are a number of good reasons why frock coats cost what they do. If it's any comfort, they cost a lot at the time, too.

Just yesterday I was comparing clothing prices in the 1st and 12th editions of Kautz's Company Clerk (no, I don't know why -- it's a disease, really). As I recall, a dress coat cost about $7.35 in the earlier edition but by November '63 (the date given for clothing prices in the '65 edition) had declined to about $7.00 (though it was only $6.56 in 1861, according to Scott's Military Dictionary -- but then you have to throw in another 95 cents for the scales).

In any case, that's a big chunk of change when a private's pay is only $13 a month and a volunteer's clothing allowance is but $3.50 a month. I'm sure the soldiers then didn't want to wear their frocks in the mud, either, and it would give a soldier one more reason to pack them up in spring and just go with the blouse. It would also explain why, besides comfort, the uniform jacket became a popular alternative, since these generally ran a couple of bucks less.

In general, clothing prices seem to have gone up markedly between '61 and '63, then declined somewhat for most items. I haven't made a detailed study of the matter (yet), but it makes sense that shortages and a declining currency would drive costs up, then mass-production would push them back down a bit.

The point? Well, if the price of a Daley frock coat gives you sticker shock, you're having a period moment. Thank him for it. Then start saving those nickels and dimes.