FRock

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: FRock

I hope the following will make folks feel better:

Here is a properly made (at least it looks like it... except for the screwed-on sling swivel) reproduction musket that will cost you more than a properly made frock coat:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5508

BTW: if you "defarb" the run-o-the-mill Italian Enfield, you will spend more than the cost of a frock coat... but one would argue that you can take the marks off the barrel, but you can't take the "farb" out of the gun. (e.g. That which needs to be "Defarbed" in the first place can never truly be defarbed.)

Hobbies of any sort (Reenacting, hot rods, gun collecting, stereos, cycling, fishing, boating, and on and on) are expensive luxuries of free people with disposable incomes. If you're gonna do it right, you'll have to spend money and learn some new skills -or- learn no skills and spend even MORE money paying for the skills of others to get what you need. If you're looking to cut corners, then perhaps there are things more important to you than "doing it right"... or doing that particular thing "right", anyway. Individuals need to recognize when a corner is being cut, acknowledge it, and make an educated decision about where your money is going. No one else can justify it for you.

I'm not making judgements here, just stating facts. Truth be told, if any one of us wanted a [insert expensive item here], and were short on cash, there are a number of institutions that'd love to issue us a credit card. So, why don't we all have kick-@$$ gear, forcing good vendors' fingers to bleed trying to keep up with our orders? Cuz some of us have other priorities.

That's how I see it, anyway.

Disclaimer: I don't know the feller selling the Springfield and I am not endorsing the work of any particular vendor (guns or clothes)... just making an observation.

[DougCooper]

Re: FRock

This horse is mortally wounded but one more flogging is in order. Keith brings up an outstanding point about resale.

I got out of the hobby for 2+ years after moving to the wilderness and starting a business. I got no less than 30 inquiries to buy the Daley fed frock I owned - and it cost me over $500 new in 1998 (so much for frock inflation). Several folks began to bid on the frock, even after the first person bought it. The proceeds from the sale of that coat ended up buying two mature Mountain Hemlock trees, so at least my better half was happy along with the new owner of the coat.

Lesson is there is ALWAYS a market for the best stuff and folks are willing to pay what it is worth. But you are limited in your ability to sell the less than good stuff - and the folks that would buy that stuff are even more concerned about price than quality. Its no fun selling something you know is bogus as Keith says.

One last note - I think it was Nick ************ who correctly stated that if you took the pattern for a fed frock to a good NYC tailor today and asked him to make you one, using the correct materials and construction...well, you'd be trading not one but two brand new poor reproduction Italian long arm weapons for it...plus a bayonet or two.

[JerseySkilletLicker]

Re: FRock

I hereby reserve the right to make the finishing blow to this poor horse before it is sent to the glue factory.

Those who have been around more than 4 years can attest to the fact that back then quality goods were still expensive and could not be had, in many cases, or at any price, in less than 6 months. Those few that received goods in less time could proudly thump their chests at the miraculous feat!

Competition helps keep the pricing within reasonable range, and, as long as businessmen like Chris and myself remain healthy in our ventures, Mr. Baker can aquire the coat he desires when he is ready as we will still be around and eager to accept his order.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: FRock

I think I saw the horse twitch so I am going to kick it one last time. For anybody that feels that what the approved vendors here do is easy, I highly recomend putting together a set of period underdrawers or a shirt to put yourself in the proper perspective. And then add on top of that the endless amounts of pesty "I ordered that overcoat yesterday and my event is tomorrow!" calls combined with "I am doing unit X tell me what I need" calls. These people go through allot to insure that we hobbyists are outfitted with well made items with a high level of authenticity for almost nothing. I know most you think that these guys all live in the Hamptons, but in truth they are not getting rich doing this for us. Consider these few things:

1. It takes less time and less money to produce one of these crappy muskets that the Italians are pawing off on us. Shop labor and materials for one of these muskets is $300 tops. And they are wrong.

2. German WW2 reenactors pay over $300 for a shoddy 100% machine sewn tunic made from the wrong material and are severly lacking several key aspects of cut and construction.

3. I spend a quater of the time and energy that it takes to make a frock that these people do at work, and our customers pay $10,000 to $60,000 a piece for some of the parts that I make.

4. Consider how much most other guys pay for there hobbies, take a look at how much guys spend on their cars, camping gear, motorcycles, stereo systems etc. We are getting off cheep.

[55th VVI]

Re: FRock

Frock Coat: $525
Issue Trowsers: $160
Forage Hat: $95
Brogans: $140


Convincing the public that you are a Union Soldier from the Civil War, over 140 years ago: Priceless.

Some things in life cannot be bought, for everything else there is Authentic Vendors.



(Support the guys who keep us looking good, and don't complain about clothing that is a work of art in it's own right.)

***The sad thing with this post, is that most authentic vendors who accept credit cards only accept Visa or Master Card***

!!!!CORRECTION!!!! Skilletlicker accepts AMEX. (Just busting Joe. I am always willing to back your merchandise, as well as any of the vendors I purchase from)

[K Bartsch]

Re: FRock

Frock Coat: $525
Issue Trowsers: $160
Forage Hat: $95
Brogans: $140


Convincing the public that you are a Union Soldier from the Civil War, over 140 years ago: Priceless.

Some things in life cannot be bought, for everything else there is Authentic Vendors.



(Support the guys who keep us looking good, and don't complain about clothing that is a work of art in it's own right.)

***The sad thing with this post, is that most authentic vendors who accept credit cards only accept Visa or Master Card***

!!!!CORRECTION!!!! Skilletlicker accepts AMEX. (Just busting Joe. I am always willing to back your merchandise, as well as any of the vendors I purchase from)

That being said...in the interest of a "fair and balanced" discussion :wink_smil

frock coat 425.00
issue trousers 150.00
forage cap 85.00
footwear 125.00

plus shipping, but a bargain indeed.
Available from approved vendor Jersey Joe!

Cordially,

[TeamsterPhil]

Re: FRock

frock coat 425.00
issue trousers 150.00
forage cap 85.00
footwear 125.00

Getting your goods from Skillet in days, as opposed to months ... priceless.


Phil Campbell
Raising Co C, 82nd OVI for McDowell 2005

[Ken]

Re: FRock

Thbaks for the replies, I hate to buy things without seing them. I deal a lot with Joe Hoffmann, mostly Nick ************ stuff. My problem is outgrow pretty much everything in a year except my gear. It almost made me sick when I put on my J.T. martin a year after I bought it, and it didn't fit. I always buy things big. Well anyway I think i'll wait until I slow down and either buy a Chris Daley or a Nick ************. My old one was a sutler row garment that almost made me laugh when I looked at it's authenticity.

Thanks,
Pvt. Courtney Micker

Your in a tough spot since you are still growing. A couple of suggestions, if you outgrow a quality item put it up for sale here to try to recoup some of the money you spent and use it to help with your next purchase. Anything that's mainstream can be sold on Bob Szabo's site. Look to this site first to purchase something you need. There are many quality used items coming up constantly on the site which can help save money. If you can sew or know someone who can, there are quality kits that can be purchased and assembled for far less than the finished garment. You or someone just needs to put in a little sweat equity to produce the finished garment. These are just a few ideas. Think outside the box, you will be surprised what you can come up with. As everyone has suggested, don't waste your money on something that isn't authentic!!

Ken Raia

[20thMainerCampaigner]

Re: FRock

Does anybody know of a vendor that sells frock kits. I looked on Charley Childs Website and he has everthing but a frock kit. I haven't seen anybody else offer one. I can't really sew that well but I know of several people that could put them together.

Thanks,
Court Micker

[55th VVI]

Re: FRock

Unfortunetly, the pattern for a frock coat, is a well kept, trade secret. There was a thread on this a while back. No one wants to give up this secret, and I cannot say I blame them. There are only 3 or 4 people who make correct frock coats.

[pvt. hardscrable]

Re: FRock

Although C&D Jarnigan isn't as high quality as some of the "approved vendors" at AC, It's just about the best out there for their price.

Edit:
This is categorically untrue. This is a forum where we recommend authentic gear, not mainstream gear. Jarnigan's frock coats are not even close to the being the best out there and if you ask Dave, I'm sure he'd tell you that himself.

Paul Calloway

[Milliron]

Re: FRock

Pards, I dearly want a nice fed frock coat to. But if I have to spend $525 for a coat, I'm not gonna want to tramp through the mud in it, I probably wouldn't let it out of the house. If, and I mean IF, I had $525, I'd buy a musket, something that would last longer.

I sympathize, Mr. Baker, I too blanched at the price of a frock coat when I first encountered them, but what has been said is all very true.

Curiously, though, do you think the average Federal soldier always had on a nice neat frock? Mud was the order of the day--embrace it. Your frock is just an accoutrement (albeit an expensive one) like anything else. Get dirty in it.

Also your statement that you would rather pick a musket up for your $500 as it would last longer is not necessarily true. It's much easier to destroy your musket in the field than a well-made frock coat (barring any mishaps with fire). Think of it this way--anything that's going to destroy your frock in the field (with you in it, presumably) would likely destroy you too--in which case you're hardly going to notice or care. There are, however, any number of ways to destroy your musket in the field--and you probably already have one of those anyway, right?

Now if you are in the unfortunate position of still growing, then I'd defer your frock purchase (and just about everything else) until you aren't.

[Sgt. Bill Tyrell]

Re: FRock

Not true, I would dispute the statement that there are only 3 or 4 vendors who can make authentic Union frock coats. There are only that number or less approved on this site. There are a number of people who can produce a very good quality frock. The main problems include obtaining quality wool and a pattern as identified above. The answer of course is get an original for them to work from. During my time in reenacting (30+ years) there have been several makers of these coats. It is not a recent invention to have a quality frock coat. I would point out however that the costs involved to make the coat right by some one else is not going to save you money, since most people would expect a reasonable wage per hour.

Dave Ward
116th Pa. V. V. I
Co. "I"

[paulcalloway]

Re: FRock

Not true, I would dispute the statement that there are only 3 or 4 vendors who can make authentic Union frock coats. There are only that number or less approved on this site. There are a number of people who can produce a very good quality frock. The main problems include obtaining quality wool and a pattern as identified above. The answer of course is get an original for them to work from. During my time in reenacting (30+ years) there have been several makers of these coats. It is not a recent invention to have a quality frock coat. I would point out however that the costs involved to make the coat right by some one else is not going to save you money, since most people would expect a reasonable wage per hour.

Dave Ward
116th Pa. V. V. I
Co. "I"

It might be worth noting that this discussion actually took place two years ago.

I agree though that there are other vendors out there who can make authentic gear - the AC Approved Vendors list is an excellent resource of vendors who support this website and manufacture/distribute authentic gear but its not fully comprehensive and wasn't intended to be.

A number of other authentic makers don't appear on the Approved Vendor list because they've chosen not to be. If dealing with a "table-topper" though, it's important to realize that there is always more risk involved.

As always, do your homework - especially in a case like this where you're likely to drop $400-500 on the purchase of this coat.

[unclefrank]

Re: FRock

Who is doing (good contractor version) Union Frocks these days. Don't see any on the approved vendors list.