Two belts?

[48Sarge]

I have a question, it may be a stupid one, but here goes. Recently a pard of mine showed me a picture of a painted Richmond Arsenal style belt with a revolver and cap box that was attributed to a Captain William A Wright. It is not mentioned what unit the captain was with or even what branch of the service. For the life of me I can't even remember what the name of the book the picture was in was called.

What I was wondering is whether this was a post war way of carrying his revolver or if this is what he carried during the war. Since this is a plain waist belt with no sword hangers. Would he have wore two belts? This just really makes me wonder.

On the same lines, in the EOG Arms of the COnfederacy, page 189, there are five belts listed as Officer's sword belts that carry no sword hangers either. I thought it strange that an officers sword belt would have no hangers?

Any thoughts on this? I apologize if this has been posted before, but I could not turn up anything using the search function.

[Bill]

Re: Two belts?

Aaron,

I have been carrying my pistol on a separate belt for a while. I do this for two reasons. First, it makes a lot of sense. It "rides" a lot better, and you don't have to take apart your sword belt to attach a holster. A sword and a pistol is a lot of weight on a single belt, and the majority of sword belts did not have shoulder straps. Second, Elisha Hunt Rhodes, makes a couple of references to "straping on his pistol" in "All for the Union". Col. Rhodes also mentions carrying a pistol in his boot top.

You see very few photographs of infantry officers with pistols on their sword belts, even in the field. We know they were used, at least by company grade officers. I doubt very much that they would have removed their holster from their sword belt if they normally wore it there. I have never viewed an original infantry officer's sword belt with a holster attached, or noticed any sign of wear that might have been caused by a holster.

I'm sure other's mileage will vary!

[48Sarge]

Re: Two belts?

So just out of curiosity, where do you place your other belt in regards to your sword belt. I have noticed as well that no belts have wear or intact holsters on them. I think this may be another reason that their is the mistaken beleif that officers never carried pistols.

[1stMaine]

Re: Two belts?

Comrades,

Keep in mind that only a company grade officer would be carrying a revolver in a belt holster. Field grade officers, majors and above, would be mounted and would use a pommel holster for their weapon, thus negating the need for a holster.
Also, far too many officers encumber themselves with cap boxes, pistol boxes, etc. These would be a rare addition, especially so since they would have to purchase it themselves, and are virtually unseen in period images. Officers by and large carried any spare cartridges in a pocket (they came in split wooden paper-wrapped blocks,) and a small tin a caps could likewise be placed in a coat pocket or their haversack, etc.
Many accounts I have read regarding officers and revolvers, speak of the revolver being carried in their valise or bag, and being retreaved and placed upon the belt only when required. This would account for much of the lack of evident wear on the belts. It is also to be expected that some officers did NOT carry revolvers, finding their swords of sufficient value, especially with a company of rifle-armed men to their front.
Trusting this is of some small value, I remain, sirs,
respectfully,

[markj]

Re: Two belts?

May I call your attention to an image of Captain (later Major) Flavel Clingan Barber, 3rd Tennessee Infantry (CS-died of wounds, 15 May 64). This image was probably made sometime between September and December 1862 since it shows Barber still wearing captain's bars (he was promoted to Major in December 1862 and spent the period February - September 1862 as a Fort Donelson POW). Barber is wearing his revolver, butt to the front, on his right side on his sword belt. Barber's sword belt buckle appears to be a standard U.S. Army officer "eagle" buckle.

The image can be found as the frontspiece to:

Ferrell, Robert H., ed. Holding the Line: The Third Tennessee Infantry, 1861-1864 [Diary of Major Flavel C. Barber]. Kent OH: The Kent State University Press, 1994. 281 pps., illus.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Bill]

Re: Two belts?

Comrades,

Keep in mind that only a company grade officer would be carrying a revolver in a belt holster. Field grade officers, majors and above, would be mounted and would use a pommel holster for their weapon, thus negating the need for a holster.
respectfully,

Tim,

Interestingly enough, one of the times Col. Rhodes talks about strapping on his pistol, he was a regimental commander.

I agree with you that officers normally kept their revolvers stored in their baggage until needed. I just feel that at least some of these officers kept a belt attached to their holsters in that baggage. It's just a whole lot more practical.

[markj]

Re: Two belts?

An interesting item to note is that regimental staff officers, at least in Indiana, were frequently issued a PAIR of "Colts Navy Revolvers." This is plainly stated in the issue/turn-in books of the Indiana State Armorer covering 1861-1862.

The "History of the Tenth Indiana..." (1912) also indicates that "field officers" in the regiment carried their pistols in saddle-holsters as indicated in this extract from an account of the accidental shooting, and death, of Lt. Col. William C. Kise's son, on 19 November 1861:

"The evidence showed that when the [field officer's] horses reached camp, the servants always took the pistols from the holsters first and put them in the tent. This man [Kise's servant] had taken Colonel Kise's pistols out of the holsters, when the young man [Elisha Kise] ran up playfully [and] tried to take them away from him. In some manner one of them was discharged and young Kise fell dead."

Incidentally, I've visited the grave of "Young Kise"--he's buried in Oak Hill Cemetery, Lebanon, Indiana--only 30 minutes from where I live.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Bummer]

Re: Two belts?

But there is another angle here not considered.
I have had in my collection not one, but two, strap arrangements that consist of a pair of sword straps and shoulder sling (detachable) that slide over any ordinary belt to make it become a sword belt with the hanger hook etc.
One of these was folded over finished leather with fancy contrasting stitching and the other was quality plain leather with nice hardware, but not as fancy as the first.
Perhaps this is the sort of arrangement that was used in this case--and the sword straps part (which would have stayed with the sword of course) merely got seperated over the years from the waist belt and pistol holster?

Spence~

[rogue]

Re: Two belts?

Spense,
Any chancer of posting a photo of these? One sounds like a post-War "Stuart" pattern, and the other sounds interesting.
Steve Sullivan
46th Illinois
Co. Mil. Hist.

[Bummer]

Re: Two belts?

Sorry, I have since sold both of them. I did have a repro made (actually I didn't, a friend did and I inherited (literally) it) of the the 'heavier duty' one.
But it wouldn't matter anyway as I don't have picture capabilities.
The fancy one was the nicest as it was constructed very much like the nice officer belts of the day with the folded 'patent' leather, gilted hardware, fancy topstitching and all. That one came out of a GAR collection in Conn. and almost certainly belonged to a well-heeled officer. The two different ones are pretty much similar in construction, just the grade of leather and workmanship (and original cost) being different.
I don't know what else to tell you about them as they are the only two of these I have ever seen--but they definitely existed.
I have never personally used that repro so I don't know how they work out--it seems to me that the straps would slide along the belt and end up in front of the wearer as he runs along...sort of like all our infantry traps do.
Anyway, the one thing that is for sure, there was no end to all sorts of patented odd-ball military goods out for sale to soldiers back then.

Spence Waldron~

[Bummer]

Re: Two belts?

Another thought while on the subject; I just this moment remembered I still have in my collection a nice Union officer's sword belt--fine leather, struck officers quality swordbelt plate, and all gilt buckle and hardware (frame buckle type belt adjuster and so on). Definitely a fine officer's sword belt...but has absolutely NO provisions for sword straps and never had--no stitching holes or anything like that.
I would have to asume that this belt too took some sort of strap arrangement like discussed above.

S. Waldron~

[48Sarge]

Re: Two belts?

There is a vendor out there making a copy of the contrpation that was mentioned. It always struck me as odd since I never heard of or seen anything like it. In fact it reminded me a bit of growing up with those plastic swords and the way we attached them to our belts.

Again, I beleive it is Dell's Leather Works that makes them. With out any concrete backing though I'll be avoiding that one.