Sack Coats out west

[rmeyer]

I was just wonder if anyone had any information about when the first sack coats were issued out to troops in the western theater. I know that the federal government took over issuing uniforms and equipment in Feburary of 62 with the stipulation that the individual states exaust their supplies first and then the Federal Government would take over. SO what I was wondering is when did this actually start happening? Does anyone have any early accounts of Sacks being issued? or better yet what is the earliest account?


And the wheels begin to turn..........

Ryan Meyer
Skulkers Mess

[markj]

Re: Sack Coats out west

I was just wonder if anyone had any information about when the first sack coats were issued out to troops in the western theater. I know that the federal government took over issuing uniforms and equipment in Feburary of 62 with the stipulation that the individual states exaust their supplies first and then the Federal Government would take over. SO what I was wondering is when did this actually start happening? Does anyone have any early accounts of Sacks being issued? or better yet what is the earliest account?


And the wheels begin to turn..........

Ryan Meyer
Skulkers Mess

Hi Ryan,

At least as early as 30 September 1861 Major A. Montgomery, Indianapolis QM, circulated a contract bid solicitation that included a request for "10,000 Blue Flannel Sack Coats - lined." These notices were posted in the Indianapolis "Daily Journal" and "Daily Sentinel," among other papers. Bids were to be unsealed on 28 October and contracts awarded accordingly. I'll have to check to see if the winning bidder for the sack coats was mentioned in the papers but it was likely a Cincinnati firm, given the size of the order.

Having said this, from what I've seen, sack coats do not appear to have been issued in large quantities to Hoosier regiments in the field much before the spring of 1862. A dated (3 May 1862) image of Private Samuel McIlvaine, Company D, 10th Indiana Volunteer Infantry, made near Corinth MS, shows him still wearing the same nine-button blue jacket he almost certainly wore at the Battle of Mill Springs KY (19 January 1862) several months before.

Further info in "History of the Tenth Indiana" (1912) leads me to believe, at least in the case of that regiment, it was not issued sack coats prior to Summer 1862 and maybe as late as on/about 7 September 1862 when it redeployed to Nashville. Another image, showing a man who of the 55th Indiana (Three Months), who was KIA at Richmond KY (30 Aug 62) shows him wearing a sack coat. This meshes very neatly with my theory that sack coats didn't appear in large quantities among Hoosiers prior to Spring 1862.

Maybe the experience of other regiments was different and others will be able to further shed light on your question.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[TeamsterPhil]

Re: Sack Coats out west

There is a quote in the Olathe Mirror, from the summer of 1861, saying that the Olathe Union Guards (mustered in as Co C, 2nd Kansas Infantry) were outfitted with "short tailed coats". Having not located any further information on this issue, could these coats have been fatigue blouses or were they issued "jackets"?

Phil Campbell
Still raising Co C, 82nd OVI for McDowell '05

[markj]

Re: Sack Coats out west

There is a quote in the Olathe Mirror, from the summer of 1861, saying that the Olathe Union Guards (mustered in as Co C, 2nd Kansas Infantry) were outfitted with "short tailed coats". Having not located any further information on this issue, could these coats have been fatigue blouses or were they issued "jackets"?

Phil Campbell
Still raising Co C, 82nd OVI for McDowell '05

This sounds like "jackets" to me. I've seen the term "jack-coats" used elsewhere. I just don't think it could be "sack coats" since available stocks of these, especially in the West, almost certainly wouldn't have been very great. Enlisted dress coats might be another possibility although "short-tailed" tends to cast cold water on that.

Another, VERY remote possibility is that the men in question may have been wearing "swallow-tail" coats of the type much beloved by antebellum militia units. However the tails for these were "long" so I suspect my first answer is likely closer to the truth.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Agate]

Re: Sack Coats out west

Ryan,

Would be happy to share notes, have a few things which I believe might be of interest.

The problem is that there is almost too much to cover in one or two responses in a thread, in order to understand early USQMD effort and support. Would rather try and manage this, as too much new information can sometimes be of no use as it tends to cloud, and not allow one to see the "forest through the trees."

We could establish a timeline of early USQMD activity in the West, But I'm not sure it would serve our purposes much.

So I ask of you the following.

Which "west" are you most interested in?

Blouses were purchased early on both in Cincinnati and St. Louis. Both in the Department of the Ohio and the Western Department under Fremont. Both departments share a common history until July 1861. After that, procurement by AQMs in the two cities was different, due advanced local markets.

If you have no preference, maybe other members may. Understand, this is all unpublished, unknown material on USQMD support, it is involved as nothing collectively is known, and much will have to be established.

If you are not a fan of "book length" threads, let me know so I don't type all of this for nothing. I have done this in the past, and folks look at the length and ignore. Then, ask the same questions three weeks later.

Again, this is unknown, and we will have to start from the beginning in order for it to be understood and placed within the proper context.

Let me know your thoughts.

We can also put Maj. Montgomery and his role in perspective if you would prefer.

That is, unless you have more an interest in the Frontier, then there are others who I believe will be able to better serve.

Regards,

John

John Sarver
Cincinnati

[markj]

Re: Sack Coats out west

Ryan,

You (and others) may enjoy the attached Adobe file. This consists of an article from the Cincinnati "Daily Commercial" for 19 July 1861.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[rmeyer]

Re: Sack Coats out west

Here are some notes via my good buddy John Pillers showing when the state of Illinois purchased uniforms for it's troops


This is from Todd's Vol 2 American Military Equipage

"As fast as blue clothing could be procured it was issued to those regiments which still wore gray. The usual replacement was a New York-style blue jacket, of satinette material, which 9 buttons. This jacket also had shoulder tabs, belt loops, and a pocket on teh left breast. The cap was a blue forage cap, and the trousers were light blue. As borne out by contemporary photographs this style of uniform remained popular with Illinois troops throughout the war, in lieu of the Federally-issued patterns of uniforms"

Though there are a good portion of images of Ill. troops wearing the trimmed NYS-militia jacket, for the most part the images show untrimmed jackets.

It is interesting to note what Todd's has to say on state Quartermaster General supplies. It notes that from April 26, 1861 to July 1862, "...the following items within the principal categories were purchased: 25,044 dress hats, and 9,080 brass figures and letters; 59,172 caps, 3,432 cap covers with capes (havelocks); 19,046 frock coats; 64,412 jackets; 11,072 blouses; 112,287 pairs of pants; 21,878 pairs of boots; 93,148 pairs of shoes; 72,866 overcoats; 95,967 woolen blankets; 20,637 enameled or rubber blankets; 35,223 knapsacks; 45,925 haversacks; 54,740 canteens."

And AME says, the state continued to order and issue clothing on its own at least through 1862, even after the Fed asked the state to turn over all property on hand in September 1862

So I guess the next bully buy will be havelocks (I'll take an extra large) anyway hope you all found this interesting

Ryan Meyer
Skulkers Mess

[rmeyer]

Re: Sack Coats out west

Ryan,

Would be happy to share notes, have a few things which I believe might be of interest.

The problem is that there is almost too much to cover in one or two responses in a thread, in order to understand early USQMD effort and support. Would rather try and manage this, as too much new information can sometimes be of no use as it tends to cloud, and not allow one to see the "forest through the trees."

We could establish a timeline of early USQMD activity in the West, But I'm not sure it would serve our purposes much.

So I ask of you the following.

Which "west" are you most interested in?

Blouses were purchased early on both in Cincinnati and St. Louis. Both in the Department of the Ohio and the Western Department under Fremont. Both departments share a common history until July 1861. After that, procurement by AQMs in the two cities was different, due advanced local markets.

If you have no preference, maybe other members may. Understand, this is all unpublished, unknown material on USQMD support, it is involved as nothing collectively is known, and much will have to be established.

If you are not a fan of "book length" threads, let me know so I don't type all of this for nothing. I have done this in the past, and folks look at the length and ignore. Then, ask the same questions three weeks later.

Again, this is unknown, and we will have to start from the beginning in order for it to be understood and placed within the proper context.

Let me know your thoughts.

We can also put Maj. Montgomery and his role in perspective if you would prefer.

That is, unless you have more an interest in the Frontier, then there are others who I believe will be able to better serve.

Regards,

John

John Sarver
Cincinnati

John,

The "west" I am talking about is early-mid war US Grant area of operation. although anything between the mountains and the Mississippi I am interested in. It would be cool to have a time line of when stuff was being introduced into theater it would be a helpful guide, but would anyone actually use it? I don't know. I have studied a lot about Illinois troops, since that is where I am from. But now I am a carpet bagger in Mississippi so I am starting to get my skills up on Mississippi equipment. One thing that I have always found interesting is the practice of Illinois troops to convert their sack coats into short jackets. I have never read an account from a soldier talking about but in pictures you see it everywhere. I also found an account in a memoir that I think is probably one of the earliest accounts of shelter halves being issued in Memphis (I believe it was fall of 62, but I will have to check) For years I argued with people about the western impression particularly when it came to things like guys wearing frock coats/Trimed Hardee hats/ Gaitors/ Issued Shirts/ etc. etc.and don't get me started on tents. It amazes me how somepeople thought and protrayed the western armies as a undisciplined mob with guns running around the south chasing confederates. A great person to bring into this conversation would be Greg Schuller he has an amazing amount of research on uniforms. I will try to get in touch with him and see what he has. I am sad to say that I have lost a lot of my notes in my several moves since college but I would love to discuss this topic further with anyone that is interested.

Ryan Meyer
Skulkers Mess

[Agate]

Re: Sack Coats out west

Hi Ryan,

Agree 100% with contacting Shoe, honestly believe it would be difficult to have a well rounded discussion without him. A couple of years ago on cwreenactors.com, Shoe did a post on lined trousers. I believe his documentation was twenty or twenty-five pages when printed out. He and Herr Pillers are something else.

The USQMD sort of reacted to events in the West early on, no centralized authority, which of course led to AQMs competing against each other. That had a lot to do with advancing the market(s) which were not the most stable to begin with, in turn affecting how, and I believe why, some goods were procured.

Because of this, I think it best to just start at the beginning and go from there. My research isn't complete in the least, have tons of questions. Hopefully we will draw folks like the former Sills, Mr. Daly, Shoe, as well as others, and see if we can get at least finally get our foot in the door on early USQMD support of the Western theater.

Some folks have noted that this isn't the vehicle to properly document. Probably some truth to that. But IMO, why do we document to begin with? So we can understand and appreciate. I honestly know of no better way to get info out to people I believe will appreciate it the most.

Give me a couple days, :wink_smil

John

John Sarver
Cincinnati

[Mofedshirker]

Re: Sack Coats out west

Page 40 of "Kansans at Wilson's Creek" by Piston and Hatcher has a letter from "M" with Company G, Second Kansas Infantry on June 20, 1861. It has a line saying, "Today we recieved a very small installment of clothing from the Government-a single blouse to each man." Boldface and underline are mine. Granted, this isn't concrete, but, it would seem that a sack coat is being mentioned. Take it for what you will.

[rmeyer]

Re: Sack Coats out west

Page 40 of "Kansans at Wilson's Creek" by Piston and Hatcher has a letter from "M" with Company G, Second Kansas Infantry on June 20, 1861. It has a line saying, "Today we recieved a very small installment of clothing from the Government-a single blouse to each man." Boldface and underline are mine. Granted, this isn't concrete, but, it would seem that a sack coat is being mentioned. Take it for what you will.

Steve,

Good post, One thing that I learned during all my research is never say never. I think that is probably one of the earliest western accounts on sacks being issued. In my opinoin, I think if there was actual documentation on the "fatigue" uniform that was talked about in early regs or discriptions I think they probably included sack coats; Now was this some state QM's pipe dream of everything a soldier should have and never actually got? Probably, I think when it came down to it jackets and coats just had a better look and that is what they units wanted and got. The records that I found showing soldiers purchasing uniforms, you see a lot of guys buying frock coats, jackets and sack coats and this was 63,64 (a little bit later but still interesting to me at least) Now of course there maybe other factors involved such as time of year and how well the different articles of clothing held up; I mean if a frock coat lasted twice as long then why not buy a frock. Of course that is just speculation. I need to go through my box o' books and see if I can find that memoir it has several good mentions of what he was getting issued. I will try to pull it up tomorrow night. Thanks for a great conversation guys. I have enjoyed it


Ryan Meyer
Skulkers Mess

[Company Tailor]

Re: Sack Coats out west

I was just wonder if anyone had any information about when the first sack coats were issued out to troops in the western theater. I know that the federal government took over issuing uniforms and equipment in Feburary of 62 with the stipulation that the individual states exaust their supplies first and then the Federal Government would take over. SO what I was wondering is when did this actually start happening? Does anyone have any early accounts of Sacks being issued? or better yet what is the earliest account?


And the wheels begin to turn..........

Ryan Meyer
Skulkers Mess

Ryan,
The earliest known account of the use of fatigue blouses is 01 May 1857 by the 7th Infantry as they left on the punitive Utah Expedetion of 1857~58,

"The infantry while marching carried guns, cartridge box, bayonet, canteen and haversack; they were dressed in uniform trousers and white flannel shirts, blouses [emphasis added] with light felt hats, purchased from the Company fund."

This is taken from the memoirs of Jim Farmer who served as a servant to one of the company commanders and is published in For Fatigue Purposes. He doesn't state whether the entire expedition was issued blouses but my gut feeling is that they were. The sack was supposedly developed specifically for service on the "prarie", which is exactly where they were, and initially for mounted troops only. The fact that infantry units had them at this early date seems to indicate that the issue was widespread early on.

Sacks were out there being used right from the get-go, especially in the west.

[rmeyer]

Re: Sack Coats out west

Pat,

Thanks for the information, I realize that the sack coat was designed and in use before the war, I guess my question is based on the fact that everything that I have read, discussed, seen (and granted I am no expert, nor have I seen or read everything) but when reading about initial issue for early war troops (I am talking 61, early 62) I don't think I have ever seen an account of troops getting sacks, fatigue blouses etc. etc. So I was just wondering when the use of them became common practice.


I look forward to reading your book,
Ryan Meyer

Ryan,
The earliest known account of the use of fatigue blouses is 01 May 1857 by the 7th Infantry as they left on the punitive Utah Expedetion of 1857~58,

"The infantry while marching carried guns, cartridge box, bayonet, canteen and haversack; they were dressed in uniform trousers and white flannel shirts, blouses [emphasis added] with light felt hats, purchased from the Company fund."

This is taken from the memoirs of Jim Farmer who served as a servant to one of the company commanders and is published in For Fatigue Purposes. He doesn't state whether the entire expedition was issued blouses but my gut feeling is that they were. The sack was supposedly developed specifically for service on the "prarie", which is exactly where they were, and initially for mounted troops only. The fact that infantry units had them at this early date seems to indicate that the issue was widespread early on.

Sacks were out there being used right from the get-go, especially in the west.

[Company Tailor]

Re: Sack Coats out west

Pat,

Thanks for the information, I realize that the sack coat was designed and in use before the war, I guess my question is based on the fact that everything that I have read, discussed, seen (and granted I am no expert, nor have I seen or read everything) but when reading about initial issue for early war troops (I am talking 61, early 62) I don't think I have ever seen an account of troops getting sacks, fatigue blouses etc. etc. So I was just wondering when the use of them became common practice.


I look forward to reading your book,
Ryan Meyer

I guess the short answer would be that they were widely in use from the very beginning of the war. I've got company property books dated from late '61 and early '62 that show "blouses" on hand and being issued. Before the war had even started the sack had firmly and irrevocably (well, until 1872 anyway) occupied the role of THE field dress of the National Army. In addition, artwork and images show the AoP (the old one, not the modern one :wink_smil ) on the Penninsula wearing sacks in large numbers as well as in Washington during late '61.

Cheers!

[1stMaine]

Re: Sack Coats out west

Comrade Brown,

According to the stuff I have read, Johnson's Army had a rather motley look to a large portion of it. The reason was that the USQD used it as a means to expend a large portion of leftover out-of-date uniforms in order to make room for the new style coats, caps, etc. The army higher-ups didn't want to spend large amounts of money on the new style uniforms while there were large quantities of the older patterns on hand. Therefor, use it up as fast as could be.
Older Infantry shell jackets, "wheel hats", etc, were made available to those units assigned to the expedition, with the expectation that the campaign would wear them out and allow the USQD to replace them with the new stuff.
Anyway, it makes sense to me. Post CW army units were ordered to rework their accouterments to accept the new cartridges when the allin conversions started arriving, and one source I read stated that much of Custer's troopers were using CW surplus equipment as well, despite the new breechloaders and revolvers they were issued.
Anyway, that's my two-cent's worth.
respects,