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Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

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  • Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

    I am attempting to produce a kibbler/ Mexican War Style/ CW-USMC pack. Not for sale but for personal use. I am pretty sure I can do it from my research. But my research lacks dimensions and measurement. Being a good Authentic. (Even when being authentic was'nt cool-- my apologies to country music) Does anyone out there have the dimensions or a pattern would be better. Thanks, A CW-Jarhead

    Sir,

    As was stated by a user below, we do not allow unsigned posts on this forum. When you registered you affirmed that you had read and understood the rules. Failure to sign your posts again may result in a change of your account status.

    Justin Runyon, AC Moderator
    Last edited by ; 09-02-2004, 05:33 PM. Reason: 'Bolded' Justin's warning - for emphasis

  • #2
    Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

    Try ordering a from the back issues of Military Collector and Historian Volume 43, Issue 1, Page 38. Fred Gaede wrote a brief article that included the dimensions taken from the knapsack of N. B. Johnston of the 1st Virginia Artillery. It's not Kibbler's knapsack, but it is very similar, and also inspired by the prewar US pattern, often called the "Mexican War" style.
    Phil Graf

    Can't some of our good friends send us some tobacco? We intend to "hang up our stockings." if they can't send tobacco, please send us the seed, and we will commence preparing the ground; for we mean to defend this place till h-ll freezes over, and then fight the Yankees on the ice.

    Private Co. A, Cook's Reg't, Galveston Island.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

      Originally posted by degeesaman@hotmail.com
      I am attempting to produce a kibbler/ Mexican War Style/ CW-USMC pack. Not for sale but for personal use. I am pretty sure I can do it from my research. But my research lacks dimensions and measurement. Being a good Authentic. (Even when being authentic was'nt cool-- my apologies to country music) Does anyone out there have the dimensions or a pattern would be better. Thanks, A CW-Jarhead
      A few quick things for you.

      #1. What makes you think that a Kibbler Style Pack is the correct Kanpsack for CW era Marines?

      #2. Have you should contacted anyone at the Marine Corps Museum and Historical Branch at HQMC for information. No? If you call them, ask for SSgt. Sullivan, tell him MSgt Hicks referred him to you. Ask him to connect you to whom ever can help, or if he can dig the information up himself.

      #3. Here at the AC Forums, every user is required to sign each post with his actual name.

      #5. Welcome aboard.

      #6. Semper Fidelis
      Brian Hicks
      Widows' Sons Mess

      Known lately to associate with the WIG and the Armory Guards

      "He's a good enough fellow... but I fear he may be another Alcibiades."

      “Every man ever got a statue made of him was one kinda sumbitch or another. It ain’t about you. It’s about what THEY need.”CAPTAIN MALCOLM REYNOLDS

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

        You can get detailed drawings and measurments from the Museum of the Confederacy. www.moc.com They will cost you $30, $15 if you become a member.
        Timothy J. Koehn
        Boone's Louisiana Battery
        Supporting Confederate Memorial Hall, New Orleans, LA
        http://www.confederatemuseum.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

          Mr. Geesaman,

          From you post, it sounds like you are saying that you have notes regarding the materials and construction techniques used on this particular pack but don't have the dimensions. That puzzles me.

          I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I guess I'm just curious as to the extent of your research.
          John Stillwagon

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

            Quick question here;

            Are the dimensions for either the Marion C. Pritchard pack or George(?) Stovall hardpack avaliable anywhere?

            I've heard the Pritchard dimensions are at the MOC, but I can't find any info on the Stovall pack.

            Thanks
            Andrew Donovan
            Livonia, MI
            5th Texas Co. E
            Medich Battalion
            Beauregard Mess

            [FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][COLOR=DarkRed][I]"High Ho, de boatman row. Floatin' down de ribber, de Ohio"[/I] [/COLOR] [/FONT]

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

              If you find out anything about the Stovall, let me know by p/m. I've attempted to get the data on the Stovall knapsack from the MOC several times and have recieved no reply.

              I believe this knapsack was produced by the firm of H.K. Shackleford in Rome, Georgia. According to the Rome Courier Shackleford supplied knapsacks, haversacks, sword and pistol belts to Stovall's unit, the Rome Light Guards (Co. A, Eighth Ga.) and was awarded several sucessive contracts to supply the same items to the State of Alabama. According to the Courier at least two of the contracts for 5000 sets of infantry accoutrements had been delivered by late 1862.
              Marlin Teat
              [I]“The initial or easy tendency in looking at history is to see it through hindsight. In doing that, we remove the fact that living historical actors at that time…didn’t yet know what was going to happen. We cannot understand the decisions they made unless we understand how they perceived the world they were living in and the choices they were facing.”[/I]-Christopher Browning

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

                Both the Pritchard and Kibbler packs have full work sheets available from the MOC. These are copyrighted materials and proceeds go to the museum so I recommend contacting them and getting a copy. Sheets are $15 for members and $30 for non-members.



                "• Object Worksheet Fee
                Object worksheets are schematic drawings that detail an artifact, providing general information and dimensions. These are intended for personal use only. You must obtain written permission to reproduce artifacts from the Museum’s collection. Existing worksheets are $30.00 each for the public and $15.00 each for Museum members. Additionally, researchers requesting the creation of new object worksheets for artifacts will be charged correspondence research fees at the rate described under library services. Fee must be prepaid. Contact the following to order an object worksheet:
                • registrar artifacts
                • curator flag collection"
                John Stillwagon

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

                  The Stovall pack and the Pace pack seem to be very similer. I have a pack in my collection that is also very similer to these 2 packs. I am headed to the MOC tomorrow to view these things and get the write up sheets.My main objective for going was to compare my pack with the Pace & Stovall packs. Unfortunatly getting into the collection room is out as they have been without power and lights for 4 days from the hurricane. They have asked me to reschedule my appointment. I am going to look at these packs in october since this weekend is out. I will post info on them in october after I personaly veiw them
                  John Greenfield

                  GawdAwful Mess [url]www.gawdawfulmess.com[/url]

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

                    I'm puzzled, why do you have to have permission to rteproduce an item from the MOC? True, they own the item, but they didnt patent or design it.I'm not trying to be a butt- head here, but I'm just curious. Or are you reffering to reproducing it from one of the drawings they provide you? Even then its still questionable. I remember a similar case dealing with some medieval armour in Leeds, U.K. The museum tried to prevent a famous armourer from reproducing a suit of armour. The armourer ended up taking the case to court. In the end the armourer won, and was able to exactly reproduce the suite of armour.
                    Thanks,
                    Henry Northump

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

                      There are a couple of factors that play into reproducing from the MOC collection:

                      1: Property Rights (it's their stuff, they can say what happens with it--that's the way property rights are supposed to work here in the US.)

                      2: Copyrights & Licensing (it's their diagram, and they actually *can* say what can and cannot be done with their intellectual property.)

                      Not to get into a huge debate, I'll refer you to the official Horse's Mouth for this stuff: http://www.copyright.gov Patterns (and diagrams) fall under Visual Works primarily.

                      Copyright and licensing laws vary internationally. When doing things here in the US, or using US sources, it's really a good idea to be very clear on what is, and what is not, allowed by the owner of those rights.
                      Regards,
                      Elizabeth Clark

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

                        I think the wording is a bit unclear, but should mean that written permission is required when making a reproduction using their worksheet. Otherwise, I would assume it would be very difficult to keep someone from making a reproduction of something of which there happens to be an original in the museum's collection. As far as I know, possession of an object is not equivalent to the possession to the design of that object.
                        Phil Graf

                        Can't some of our good friends send us some tobacco? We intend to "hang up our stockings." if they can't send tobacco, please send us the seed, and we will commence preparing the ground; for we mean to defend this place till h-ll freezes over, and then fight the Yankees on the ice.

                        Private Co. A, Cook's Reg't, Galveston Island.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

                          Folks,

                          While I agree with all the nuances of copyrights, etc., having worked in the museum field, in this case I think a simple phone call to Robert Hancock would suffice. Something like, "Hey Robert, I'd like to use your spec sheet to make a Kibbler bag". Robert's response would be, "Well, that's what the heck it's for, go for it." Robert is the gentleman who drew the sheet and the main curator/registrar of collections that handles the viewing of articles. I've always found him to be friendly, responsive and accomodating. Let's not complicate the process any more than we have to. Just my two cents.

                          PS-If anyone is planning on viewing this bag or has desire to do so in the future, you better make it quick. The Kibbler is the #1 viewed article (suprised me) in the MOC's collection and it's starting to show the wear from being handled so frequently. Brad Malone and I went over this knapsack and several other items several weekends ago and Robert mentioned a pending halt on the public viewing of it for the above reason. Just FYI for those interested.

                          Regards,

                          Neill Rose
                          PLHA
                          Love & Wienges

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

                            Originally posted by tmdreb
                            I think the wording is a bit unclear, but should mean that written permission is required when making a reproduction using their worksheet. Otherwise, I would assume it would be very difficult to keep someone from making a reproduction of something of which there happens to be an original in the museum's collection. As far as I know, possession of an object is not equivalent to the possession to the design of that object.

                            Another consideration is whether the item actually belongs to the museum. Some items at most museums are on permanent or semi-permanent loan from the familiy of the original owner.

                            I tend to think that a massed produced item would be in the public domain while a one-of-a-kind item would be protected. Just an educated opinion -- could be wrong.
                            Marlin Teat
                            [I]“The initial or easy tendency in looking at history is to see it through hindsight. In doing that, we remove the fact that living historical actors at that time…didn’t yet know what was going to happen. We cannot understand the decisions they made unless we understand how they perceived the world they were living in and the choices they were facing.”[/I]-Christopher Browning

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

                              Hallo Kameraden und Kameradinnen!

                              IMHO, a messy and "hard-to-understand" at times concept...

                              A number of years ago, an 18th century gunmaker I know introduced a reproduction of the British P1742 Long Land Pattern musket, to be limited to a "batch" of no ore than 12 to be made.

                              In addition to the standard published references on the arm, he visited the "Arsenal" at "Colonial Williamsburg" to examine a nice representative collection of original LLP's, and LLP's that were "cut down" in the early 1770's.

                              When his ad came out, with wording that his LLP's were "based upon the originals at Colonial Wiliamsburg," Williamsburg's lawyers wanted to pull reference to Williamsburg from the ad.

                              Whether the legal issue was the "unauthorized" use of "Colonial Williamsburg" in the wording of the ad- or whether the original LLP's were the physical or "intellectual" property of Colonial Williamsburg was never elaborated or settled in or out of court.

                              The profit to the gunbuilder on 12 muskets would have been consumed many times over in his hiring an attorney at $150-200 an hour to defend against Williamsburg staff or on-retainer lawyers.

                              But yes, as with some of Civil War vendors who research and produce patterns... buying their pattern to make a garment for oneself is not quite the same as a business or commercial firm buying that pattern and using it for their line of competitive garments.
                              In my often flawed mind, as a non-commercial customer with a view to reproduce a Widget from someone's "pattern, diagram, schematic, instructons, etc., that "right" is inherent in the purchase price of the "plans."
                              Which does NOT, extend to me as a commercial venture looking to market a Widget I will receive profit for from someone else's "plans."

                              In my mind, the copying of artifacts gets confusing here, and it may be time for the attorneys and lawyers to speak Law.

                              But, I would say "artifact" is different from "diagram, et. al.,"

                              Although I still shake my head over one vendor's reported statements about the Federal Government giving he and the residents of Harpers Ferry the sole legal right to use the words/term "Harper's Ferry." ;-) :-)

                              Or the Mainstream "captain" who ranted and raved over our LH mess's charcoaled sign "105th OVI," saying that he had copyrighted it and one had to be a member of the "105th OVI" to be able to use it (and that we would be hearing from his attorney).

                              Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
                              Curt Schmidt
                              In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                              -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                              -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                              -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                              -Vastly Ignorant
                              -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

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