Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

[degeesaman@hotmail.com]

I am attempting to produce a kibbler/ Mexican War Style/ CW-USMC pack. Not for sale but for personal use. I am pretty sure I can do it from my research. But my research lacks dimensions and measurement. Being a good Authentic. (Even when being authentic was'nt cool-- my apologies to country music) Does anyone out there have the dimensions or a pattern would be better. Thanks, A CW-Jarhead

Sir,

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[tmdreb]

Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

Try ordering a from the back issues of Military Collector and Historian Volume 43, Issue 1, Page 38. Fred Gaede wrote a brief article that included the dimensions taken from the knapsack of N. B. Johnston of the 1st Virginia Artillery. It's not Kibbler's knapsack, but it is very similar, and also inspired by the prewar US pattern, often called the "Mexican War" style.

[BrianHicks]

Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

I am attempting to produce a kibbler/ Mexican War Style/ CW-USMC pack. Not for sale but for personal use. I am pretty sure I can do it from my research. But my research lacks dimensions and measurement. Being a good Authentic. (Even when being authentic was'nt cool-- my apologies to country music) Does anyone out there have the dimensions or a pattern would be better. Thanks, A CW-Jarhead

A few quick things for you.

#1. What makes you think that a Kibbler Style Pack is the correct Kanpsack for CW era Marines?

#2. Have you should contacted anyone at the Marine Corps Museum and Historical Branch at HQMC for information. No? If you call them, ask for SSgt. Sullivan, tell him MSgt Hicks referred him to you. Ask him to connect you to whom ever can help, or if he can dig the information up himself.

#3. Here at the AC Forums, every user is required to sign each post with his actual name.

#5. Welcome aboard.

#6. Semper Fidelis

[Cpt Boone]

Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

You can get detailed drawings and measurments from the Museum of the Confederacy. www.moc.com They will cost you $30, $15 if you become a member.

[Yellowhammer]

Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

Mr. Geesaman,

From you post, it sounds like you are saying that you have notes regarding the materials and construction techniques used on this particular pack but don't have the dimensions. That puzzles me.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I guess I'm just curious as to the extent of your research.

[PrettyBoyDonovan]

Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

Quick question here;

Are the dimensions for either the Marion C. Pritchard pack or George(?) Stovall hardpack avaliable anywhere?

I've heard the Pritchard dimensions are at the MOC, but I can't find any info on the Stovall pack.

Thanks

[marlin teat]

Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

If you find out anything about the Stovall, let me know by p/m. I've attempted to get the data on the Stovall knapsack from the MOC several times and have recieved no reply.

I believe this knapsack was produced by the firm of H.K. Shackleford in Rome, Georgia. According to the Rome Courier Shackleford supplied knapsacks, haversacks, sword and pistol belts to Stovall's unit, the Rome Light Guards (Co. A, Eighth Ga.) and was awarded several sucessive contracts to supply the same items to the State of Alabama. According to the Courier at least two of the contracts for 5000 sets of infantry accoutrements had been delivered by late 1862.

[Yellowhammer]

Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

Both the Pritchard and Kibbler packs have full work sheets available from the MOC. These are copyrighted materials and proceeds go to the museum so I recommend contacting them and getting a copy. Sheets are $15 for members and $30 for non-members.

http://www.moc.org/exfind.htm

"• Object Worksheet Fee
Object worksheets are schematic drawings that detail an artifact, providing general information and dimensions. These are intended for personal use only. You must obtain written permission to reproduce artifacts from the Museum’s collection. Existing worksheets are $30.00 each for the public and $15.00 each for Museum members. Additionally, researchers requesting the creation of new object worksheets for artifacts will be charged correspondence research fees at the rate described under library services. Fee must be prepaid. Contact the following to order an object worksheet:
• registrar artifacts
• curator flag collection"

[3alabama]

Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

The Stovall pack and the Pace pack seem to be very similer. I have a pack in my collection that is also very similer to these 2 packs. I am headed to the MOC tomorrow to view these things and get the write up sheets.My main objective for going was to compare my pack with the Pace & Stovall packs. Unfortunatly getting into the collection room is out as they have been without power and lights for 4 days from the hurricane. They have asked me to reschedule my appointment. I am going to look at these packs in october since this weekend is out. I will post info on them in october after I personaly veiw them

[Henryplantagenet]

Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

I'm puzzled, why do you have to have permission to rteproduce an item from the MOC? True, they own the item, but they didnt patent or design it.I'm not trying to be a butt- head here, but I'm just curious. Or are you reffering to reproducing it from one of the drawings they provide you? Even then its still questionable. I remember a similar case dealing with some medieval armour in Leeds, U.K. The museum tried to prevent a famous armourer from reproducing a suit of armour. The armourer ended up taking the case to court. In the end the armourer won, and was able to exactly reproduce the suite of armour.
Thanks,
Henry Northump

[ElizabethClark]

Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

There are a couple of factors that play into reproducing from the MOC collection:

1: Property Rights (it's their stuff, they can say what happens with it--that's the way property rights are supposed to work here in the US.)

2: Copyrights & Licensing (it's their diagram, and they actually *can* say what can and cannot be done with their intellectual property.)

Not to get into a huge debate, I'll refer you to the official Horse's Mouth for this stuff: http://www.copyright.gov Patterns (and diagrams) fall under Visual Works primarily.

Copyright and licensing laws vary internationally. When doing things here in the US, or using US sources, it's really a good idea to be very clear on what is, and what is not, allowed by the owner of those rights.

[tmdreb]

Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

I think the wording is a bit unclear, but should mean that written permission is required when making a reproduction using their worksheet. Otherwise, I would assume it would be very difficult to keep someone from making a reproduction of something of which there happens to be an original in the museum's collection. As far as I know, possession of an object is not equivalent to the possession to the design of that object.

[Iron Scout]

Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

Folks,

While I agree with all the nuances of copyrights, etc., having worked in the museum field, in this case I think a simple phone call to Robert Hancock would suffice. Something like, "Hey Robert, I'd like to use your spec sheet to make a Kibbler bag". Robert's response would be, "Well, that's what the heck it's for, go for it." Robert is the gentleman who drew the sheet and the main curator/registrar of collections that handles the viewing of articles. I've always found him to be friendly, responsive and accomodating. Let's not complicate the process any more than we have to. Just my two cents.

PS-If anyone is planning on viewing this bag or has desire to do so in the future, you better make it quick. The Kibbler is the #1 viewed article (suprised me) in the MOC's collection and it's starting to show the wear from being handled so frequently. Brad Malone and I went over this knapsack and several other items several weekends ago and Robert mentioned a pending halt on the public viewing of it for the above reason. Just FYI for those interested.

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA
Love & Wienges

[marlin teat]

Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

I think the wording is a bit unclear, but should mean that written permission is required when making a reproduction using their worksheet. Otherwise, I would assume it would be very difficult to keep someone from making a reproduction of something of which there happens to be an original in the museum's collection. As far as I know, possession of an object is not equivalent to the possession to the design of that object.

Another consideration is whether the item actually belongs to the museum. Some items at most museums are on permanent or semi-permanent loan from the familiy of the original owner.

I tend to think that a massed produced item would be in the public domain while a one-of-a-kind item would be protected. Just an educated opinion -- could be wrong.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Kibbler pack dimensions or pattern

Hallo Kameraden und Kameradinnen!

IMHO, a messy and "hard-to-understand" at times concept...

A number of years ago, an 18th century gunmaker I know introduced a reproduction of the British P1742 Long Land Pattern musket, to be limited to a "batch" of no ore than 12 to be made.

In addition to the standard published references on the arm, he visited the "Arsenal" at "Colonial Williamsburg" to examine a nice representative collection of original LLP's, and LLP's that were "cut down" in the early 1770's.

When his ad came out, with wording that his LLP's were "based upon the originals at Colonial Wiliamsburg," Williamsburg's lawyers wanted to pull reference to Williamsburg from the ad.

Whether the legal issue was the "unauthorized" use of "Colonial Williamsburg" in the wording of the ad- or whether the original LLP's were the physical or "intellectual" property of Colonial Williamsburg was never elaborated or settled in or out of court.

The profit to the gunbuilder on 12 muskets would have been consumed many times over in his hiring an attorney at $150-200 an hour to defend against Williamsburg staff or on-retainer lawyers.

But yes, as with some of Civil War vendors who research and produce patterns... buying their pattern to make a garment for oneself is not quite the same as a business or commercial firm buying that pattern and using it for their line of competitive garments.
In my often flawed mind, as a non-commercial customer with a view to reproduce a Widget from someone's "pattern, diagram, schematic, instructons, etc., that "right" is inherent in the purchase price of the "plans."
Which does NOT, extend to me as a commercial venture looking to market a Widget I will receive profit for from someone else's "plans."

In my mind, the copying of artifacts gets confusing here, and it may be time for the attorneys and lawyers to speak Law.

But, I would say "artifact" is different from "diagram, et. al.,"

Although I still shake my head over one vendor's reported statements about the Federal Government giving he and the residents of Harpers Ferry the sole legal right to use the words/term "Harper's Ferry." ;-) :-)

Or the Mainstream "captain" who ranted and raved over our LH mess's charcoaled sign "105th OVI," saying that he had copyrighted it and one had to be a member of the "105th OVI" to be able to use it (and that we would be hearing from his attorney).

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt