Brogans Smooth out vs Rough Out

[marcstephen]

I am going to be buying brogans from one of the AC approved vendors. Should I get rough out or smooth out?

Thank you for your help

Marc Findlay
marcstephen
64th Illinois Infantry

[JimConley]

Re: Brogans Smooth out vs Rough Out

I believe the only AC Approved Vendors that offer brogans are Jersey Skillet Licker and Orchard Hill Sutlery. You may not have the option to choose between rough side or smooth side out, BUT you should not be concerned with this detail, however. Anything that comes from an AC Approved Vendor is researched and reproduced to replicate an original item. You should be confident in the authenticity of brogans bought from an approved vendor.

[JimConley]

Re: Brogans Smooth out vs Rough Out

But, if you care to look into this matter further, it has already been discussed.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2451&highlight=side+smooth+rough

[marcstephen]

Re: Brogans Smooth out vs Rough Out

But, if you care to look into this matter further, it has already been discussed.
http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...e+smooth+rough

Thank you very much for your imput.

Marc Findlay

[Richmond Depot]

Re: Brogans Smooth out vs Rough Out

Isn't Tom Mattimore at Mattimore Harness an approved vendor?

[JimConley]

Re: Brogans Smooth out vs Rough Out

Isn't Tom Mattimore at Mattimore Harness an approved vendor?

Yes he is. But he isn't listed on the links page of Approved Vendors, as that was where I looked. So you have another option here.

Sorry Mr. Mattimore, didn't leave you out intentionally.

[tmdreb]

Re: Brogans Smooth out vs Rough Out

I believe the only AC Approved Vendors that offer brogans are Jersey Skillet Licker and Orchard Hill Sutlery. You may not have the option to choose between rough side or smooth side out, BUT you should not be concerned with this detail, however. Anything that comes from an AC Approved Vendor is researched and reproduced to replicate an original item. You should be confident in the authenticity of brogans bought from an approved vendor.

Jim,

Not that I disagree with your assessment, and I'm not coming down on you, but personally, I'd rather see questions asking "what makes an item authentic?" rather than "who makes an authentic item" to paraphrase John Stillwagon, I believe it was who said something similar. Show a man what to look for, and that will tell him where to look.

[JimConley]

Re: Brogans Smooth out vs Rough Out

Jim,

Not that I disagree with your assessment, and I'm not coming down on you, but personally, I'd rather see questions asking "what makes an item authentic?" rather than "who makes an authentic item" to paraphrase John Stillwagon, I believe it was who said something similar. Show a man what to look for, and that will tell him where to look.

I agree with your statement. He had already made it clear that he would be purchsing a pair of brogans from an AC Approved Vendor. If he doesn't have the option that he specified, then should he be concerened? Is that not why we have Approved Vendors? I just believe it's an issue that really is fretted on more than necessary. If he were to purchase a pair from Joe Hoffman, for example, would he really need to worry about his query buying brogans from Nick ************, who as we all know, is a well-reserached and accomplished craftsman?

I do not disagree with you whatsoever. More and more people should be concerned about authenticity and what about an item makes it authentic. It was just a simple answer to the question.

[Silas]

Re: Brogans Smooth out vs Rough Out

I recall a quote from RE Lee around late 1863 about how much he disliked the issuance of rough side out brogans. The phrase he used was something like, "the practice of creating them [rough side out brogans] is abhorant to nature and should be stopped."

Take phrase with a grain of salt. If you blacken or otherwise treat rough side out brogans between events, they may become just as water tight as smooth sided brogans. I don't think you can go wrong either way.

For clarification, Orchard Hill sells Mattimore brogans. I bought a pair of the NY brogans from Dan earlier this year. I ordered smooth side outs, but did not realize until after a weekend's wear that they were rough side out. They were so well done when new that they appeared to be smooth side out. A little Huberts Shoe Grease (pine tar and bees wax) between events and they look like smooth side outs.

[den.bolda]

Re: Brogans Smooth out vs Rough Out

Do we know the original ratio of usage, when we compare smooth side to rough side out?
Den Bolda

[Shaun Pekar]

Re: Brogans Smooth out vs Rough Out

In terms of Federal Bootees (never seen them refered to officially as Brogans), I've never seen a shred of evidence to indicate that they were ever produced in any other manner than "rough" out.

The standard leather for boot and bootee uppers on military footwear in the period is what we refer to as "waxed flesh" or "waxed calf" and is nearly always used flesh out in military footwear. The amount of stuffing (oils and fats) applied to the leather after tanning lays down the flesh in such a manner that it is incredibly difficult to discern flesh from grain if you don't know what your looking at.

All surviving ISSUE bootees and boots I've seen and looked at use this type of uppers leather. Now, in terms of reproductions, today, there is only one tannery I'm aware of producing a leather that even comes close to this waxed leather, and from what I've seen, most vendors don't use it, perhaps because of the expense in importing what is an already quite expensive leather from Great Britain.

My .02...

[rmilstead]

Re: Brogans Smooth out vs Rough Out

Shaun,
Can you share the company name and contact information of the firm that you say still produces and sells "waxed calf/waxed flesh" leather? I have been trying to find a source for the proper material for some years without success.

Your comments are correct, the federal specifications on contracted shoes called, I believe, for "waxed" leather. Fred Gaede would be able to confirm that or if someone has his recent book edited with Jerry Coates on the 1865 Quartermaster Manual that probably specifies it as well. While CS domestically made shoes were apparently made both ways, certainly the preference for practical reasons was "waxed" leather. Severe leather shortages in the South after the middle of the War meant that both European (mostly English) shoes and imported leathers were being run through the Blockade in huge quantities so much of that used by CS Quartermaster shoe manufacturing operations in Richmond and Georgia may have been from foreign produced "waxed" leather as well. Somewhere I believe I have seen a reference to R. E. Lee being presented with a sample set of domestically produced shoes for inspection that were made rough side in (smooth side out) which he supposedly rejected because of such construction. I wish I had the reference at hand.

Back in my youth (don't ask how many years ago that was) I worked with Ernie Peterkin and learned some of the trade from him including "hog bristle" sewing and welted construction. He used to get "waxed calf" leather out of England. I would like to make a set of Jefferson Booties for myself but want to use the correct stuff so if I can find out where to get some I may break out my lasts and tools again and give it a go.

Dick Milstead
Hardaway's Alabama Battery
The Company of Military Historians.

[roundshot]

Re: Brogans Smooth out vs Rough Out

"The Chief Quartermaster of the army brought me this morning a sample of shoes recently sent from Richmond. One pair war of Richmond manufacture and another from Columbus Georgia They were intended to be fair samples of each lot and selected with that view. neither could compare with the shoes made in this army. In the Richmond shoe the face of the skin next the animal was turned out, which is contrary to the practices of the best maker and contrary to the arrangement of nature. Without knowing the result of experiment in this matter, I should therefore think it wrong. The leather in the Columbus shoe was not half tanned and the shoe was badly made.. The soles of both [were] slight and would not stand a week's march in mud and water." R.E. Lee to QM General, Jan. 30, 1864 from "Wartime Papers of Robert E. Lee."

[Shaun Pekar]

Re: Brogans Smooth out vs Rough Out

Dick,

The company is called Dickens Brothers Leathers. A quick Google search should do the trick. Please buy as much as you can. ;-) This is one of those businesses that I fear will be gone before too long.

From what I'm told, this waxed calf pales in comparison to the stuff that Ernie and Saguto were getting 40 years ago, but it's better than the alternative...

I've been spending a good bit of time with Ernie Peterkin's research papers as of late and really wish I had had the opportunity to meet him. I've been mentored by one of his protégés and from everything I hear, he was quite the guy. An amazing researcher and a great craftsman.

[maillemaker]

Re: Brogans Smooth out vs Rough Out

http://www.dickensbrothers.co.uk/

Steve