Ginger Beer Bottles

[Matthew Semple]

I am working with a potter who I got interested in trying to reproduce ginger beer bottles of the period. I have a couple prewar and wartime bottles in my personal collection that were dug from campsites and homestead trash pits. We are using my originals as examples to hopefully develop a quality reproduction. I will not make any promises until we make several attempts and are satisfied with the results. The following will be helpful in my project:

1. There was a thread before the crash that discussed the topic of these bottles. Does someone have that archived and can they post it here?

2. Can you post pictures of original (pre-1865) ginger beer bottles from your collection?

Thank you in advance for your consideration.

[John-Owen Kline]

Re: Ginger Beer Bottles

Before I participate in the poll; will the potter produce the bottles using the correct clays and proper salt or lead glazes? Will they be molded or thrown? Does the potter use gas, electric or wood fired kilns and subsequently the correct temperatures and length? What about uniform sizes? Any markings or stamps? British or American?

[MomKelly]

Re: Ginger Beer Bottles

I would be interested but only if they are good quality reproductions.
that look like originals... My only thought is there should be a makers mark that clearly indicates a repro on the bottom so they can not be sold at a later time as an original.

Respectfully,
Catherine Kelly

[roundshot]

Re: Ginger Beer Bottles

Since you asked for pics, here's some bottles from the large dump of the Federal fort at Gloucester Point, VA.

[bcatgrappler]

Re: Ginger Beer Bottles

Most of the stoneware crocks, jugs, mugs, and bottles of the period were thrown on a jig. A jig is different than handthrown pottery because they were not made by hand, but they were made in the same basic principle. I have been trying to reproduce jugs and bottles since I started making pots, but I do not use a jig and there is also a problem with the glazing techniques. Many of the jugs, crocks, and etc. from the time were glazed with a dark brown type of slip that was mined in New York which has been completely mined out, so the dark brown that is seen in old pieces can not be reproduced the same way that it was. They were also salt glazed, by throwing salt in the kiln during the second firing which pulls the silica out of the air and sticks it to the pieces in the kiln and after a kiln has been used for a salt glazing, it can not be used again for any other type of glazing so it basically ruins a kiln.

I have come pretty close to reproducing older pottery that was seen in the 1860's but it can never be done perfectly, mainly because of the glaze/ dark brown slip problem.

Thanks,
Michael A. Ray

[bcatgrappler]

Re: Ginger Beer Bottles

Before I participate in the poll; will the potter produce the bottles using the correct clays and proper salt or lead glazes? Will they be molded or thrown? Does the potter use gas, electric or wood fired kilns and subsequently the correct temperatures and length? What about uniform sizes? Any markings or stamps? British or American? What is the estimated cost to us (vs. buying a period piece)? Can you post an example of their work?

John, any type of stoneware clay (non-porcelain) is suitable for this time period of American made pottery but as for the glazes, I talked about some methods in my post above. Lead glazes, however are hard to aquire because they are illegal to use in containers that are made to contain foods and anything intended for consumption. They may be just outright illegal to use, period, but I am not sure. The method of firing does not affect the quality of authenticity as much as the glaze used and temperature/ duration of firing. The same outcome can be produced with an electric or gas kiln as with a wood kiln.


Michael A. Ray

[Hargis, G. 5 A-1]

Re: Ginger Beer Bottles

Lead Glaze?
Not for nothing was lead posioning known as "The Potter's Disease"

Glen E. Hargis
This, that, and the other

[Charles Heath]

Re: Ginger Beer Bottles

Matthew, you might check with Townsend who has dropped their ginger beer bottle from their most recent catalog to see if it meets your specs. Their supplier made a nice looking bottle, however the price was actually higher than useable originals. Also, do you happen to own an unopened orginal with a decent label?

[John-Owen Kline]

Re: Ginger Beer Bottles

...any type of stoneware clay (non-porcelain) is suitable for this time period of American made pottery...The method of firing does not affect the quality of authenticity as much as the glaze used and temperature/ duration of firing.

Are you the potter in question in post number one?

You are saying that a Utica NY stoneware fires the same as a Georgia Peidmont stoneware or a Goshen VA shale laden stoneware or a smelly St. Louis river clay?

The sugars in wood firing produce various tints. In fact ordinary variations in firing and cooling, even the humidity of the day, produce different hues and timbres when wood is used. Then there is the type and season of the wood to be considered, even where the vessel sits in the kiln (opposed to the flue, heat souce and vents). Those in top of the kiln vary from those in lower sectons.

Gas and electric kilns are very clean, dependable and predictable. The subtle nuances of natural firings are factored out of the two common modern processes.

[bcatgrappler]

Re: Ginger Beer Bottles

Are you the potter in question in post number one?

You are saying that a Utica NY stoneware fires the same as a Georgia Peidmont stoneware or a Goshen VA shale laden stoneware or a smelly St. Louis river clay?

The sugars in wood firing produce various tints. In fact ordinary variations in firing and cooling, even the humidity of the day, produce different hues and timbres when wood is used. Then there is the type and season of the wood to be considered, even where the vessel sits in the kiln (opposed to the flue, heat souce and vents). Those in top of the kiln vary from those in lower sectons.

Gas and electric kilns are very clean, dependable and predictable. The subtle nuances of natural firings are factored out of the two common modern processes.

Okay, what I mean is, it does not matter whether it is Tennessee ball clay stoneware or Kentucky ball clay. Many different types of clays were used, but porcelain comes from China and was not prevalant here.

The type of kiln does not matter, if you are trying to match an original glaze (color to color) but if you want the same exact glaze, then yes, you must use a wood kiln. Electric and gas kilns did not exist yet.

[ElizabethClark]

Re: Ginger Beer Bottles

Mr Ray, don't forget to take a moment and configure your auto-signature in the User CP area (this will post your name automatically with each message, and I won't be coming around to nag you about it. :) )

To clarify: there are areas that have kaolin clay here in the US, as well as Europe and Britain, which is made into porcelain (I've not studied bottles, but I have studied dolls and some dishes). I was wondering if you meant that for US manufacture of bottles, porcelain was not as often done as other clays? Certainly Chinese exports of "china" were pretty large, but so were our imports of British and European porcelain during the period. I've not look at a great many American records for porcelain yet, however.

Thanks for any clarification you can share!

[bcatgrappler]

Re: Ginger Beer Bottles

Pocelain china and china dolls were not used as bottles, jugs, crocks, or any other vessel used to contain products, such as whiskey or grains, in households, stores, ships, or even used in shipping. Stoneware was used because of it's durability and the nature of the clay allows it to be thrown into much larger pieces. Porcelain is much more fragile and expensive. Stoneware clays do not have to be imported, they can be found in your back yard.

Michael A. Ray

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Ginger Beer Bottles

Michael, you need to double check your sources here. And then post them.

[ElizabethClark]

Re: Ginger Beer Bottles

Please notice: I did not claim porcelain dolls were used to store liquids. You stated that porcelain comes from China, and I pointed out that the porcelain process could be and was duplicated in many other areas besides China, with the type of clay that would yeild a "china" end product, produced and available from the US. Some forms of heavy white porcelain were indeed used for dishware (it's not fragile in the thicker items, actually). White clay was used to make very durable "white china" or "milk glass" buttons--a simple utility button that held up to just about everything.

I'd definitely be interested in more information on "throwing with a jig"--with source citations, please, so I can find more books to read!

[JimKindred]

Re: Ginger Beer Bottles

Guys,

I appreciate your alerts but being wrong about a particular topic is not necessarily an offense on the AC, if it was we would have a lot of posts to clean out.