Tait Trousers?

[5th Texas]

Did the Peter Tait Company supply a certain pattern trousers with their (well documented) jackets? Did they supply trousers at all?
I know repro makers will knock off a pair of "Richmond" pattern trousers in the same English Army cloth that they will make your Tait jacket out of. But I was wondering if any trousers made by the Tait company survive, and if so, were there any distinct features about them?
There are many well known late war references by Confederate soldiers about being issued new sets of "clothes" made from blue-gray English cloth. And they almost always say clothes, not jackets, so the jackets and trousers must have been issued in sets. I hit the search button on this topic but nothing came up that was very conclusive.

[5th Texas]

Re: Tait Trousers?

Well, either I brought up a topic so uninteresting that no one thought twice about it.
Or it has been hashed over before and your waiting for me to figure it out.
Or I stumped y'all on this one.
Which is it?

[hendrickms24]

Re: Tait Trousers?

Which is it?

Or maybe the person with the correct answer hasn't wondered thru yet. Relax its only been a couple days! :beer_yum:

[DougCooper]

Re: Tait Trousers?

The answer is yes. There are refs in manifests and contract documents to "suits" of Tait uniforms (jacket and trousers), and we had quite the disertation from Bob MacDonald about 2 years ago on this forum. It may be gone unfortunately. There is a pair of likely Tait trousers in a collection in Maryland if memory serves. Meanwhile, here is a photo of a pair of blue gray kersey trousers belonging to ....in the Texas State History museum in Sugarland Texas. This may have been imported made up or made from imported cloth in Shreveport, based on the likely point of issue for the soldier, an artillerymen named Henry Brunet, who wore the uniform home from the war.

[Richmond Depot]

Re: Tait Trousers?

Randy, in response to your comment that "repro.makers will knock off a pair of Richmond Trousers" I do NOT offer trousers in this fabric and pattern because I have not seen an original pair to duplicate.

For trivia, do you know that the trousers that you refer to as "Richmond" pattern are actually a civillian pattern ? A similar pair exists in the NPS Museum at Sharpsburg documented to a Federal Officer.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Tait Trousers?

Here is a post war picture of Abner Williamson Grandy, Company B, 61st Va. Inf.

Could he be wearing English Kersey jacket and pants? You decide.

[5th Texas]

Re: Tait Trousers?

Thanks to all for the good info and pictures.
Scott, I know your high standards of authenticity and was not refering to you, but was making a generalized comment.

I came across the following web site from the U.K.
Being both British and American Civil War buffs, I suppose they are qualified to comment on the British textile industry's relationship with the Confederacy:

http://www.acws.co.uk/archives/military/anvblue.htm

[DougCooper]

Re: Tait Trousers?

The uniform below belonged to Henry Brunet, a Lousiana artilleryman. He wore the uniform home at the end of the war and speculation has it being issued in either Shreveport or Mobile, stops for whom en route Texas.

If anyone has the contact info for Bob MacDonald, who has quite a detailed first hand knowledge of the subject, perhaps we can get him to reprise his excellent disertation on the pair of Tait trousers known to survive. I tried just about everything search wise and it appears to have been lost in the recent meltdown.

[Ian M.]

Re: Tait Trousers?

The answer is yes. There are refs in manifests and contract documents to "suits" of Tait uniforms (jacket and trousers), and we had quite the disertation from Bob MacDonald about 2 years ago on this forum. It may be gone unfortunately. There is a pair of likely Tait trousers in a collection in Maryland if memory serves. Meanwhile, here is a photo of a pair of blue gray kersey trousers belonging to ....in the Texas State History museum in Sugarland Texas. This may have been imported made up or made from imported cloth in Shreveport, based on the likely point of issue for the soldier, an artillerymen named Henry Brunet, who wore the uniform home from the war.

Just picked up this thread since I had the same question about english army BG kersey trousers. The reference above points to a photo which seems to be lacking in the post. Doug are you out there and do you still have access or a URL for this photo?

[Joe Walker]

Re: Tait Trousers?

I have looked over one pair of RD BG Kersey pants. They were at the CW show at Gburg in 1998. I was alowed to roll up the pants legs and check out the linen reenforcement in front (about 5" high) and the back (about 2" high). I folded them flat on the side and noted the fronts of the cuff was about 3/4" higher than in the back. This table also had two RD BG kersy jackets and a grey jean jacket with NC buttons. I couldn't belive my eyes, and how I was able to handle them. I think they are in fact the ones in EOG, but I couldn't swear to it. An old pard from the 2nd Maryland was with me, Dennis Ream (of Fredrick Maryland) who has a couple of nice jackets himself. If they were Bob McDonald's I can't say since I didn't get the man's name, but it was a well-known collector at the time.


Joe Walker

[tmdreb]

Re: Tait Trousers?

Here is the link to the photo Doug was referring to: http://www.museumofsouthernhistory.org/henrybrunet.asp

[DougCooper]

Re: Tait Trousers?

Another shot of the Brunet uniform, courtesy of KC MacDonald, Lazy Jacks. Note the japanned tin button on the trousers.

[jacobite8749]

Re: Tait Trousers?

The invoices to Minter (re: Dave Burt) show on the 29 Nov 1864 5,000 suits Infantry uniforms in 60 bales at 18 shillings and 6 pence from TAIT. It also shows 5375 Military jackets, 5350 at 10 shillings and pair trousers at 8 shillings from Hebbert and Co.

On 19 December it shows another 5,000 suits Infantry uniforms in 60 Bales again at 18 shillings and 6 pence. Hebbert adds 150 pairs of pantaloons at 8 shillings and 117 jackets at 10 shillings.

These are the order shipped on the Aderlaide, who sailed on the 19th. November 1864, originally intended to land at Mobile (A. Collie changed her destination) and ended up at Galverston. The invoice says the destination was Havanna, but that may be to throw off blockaders.

My point being, the cost is about 18/6d or 18s a set from either contractor. So yes they sent trousers, whether they ever arrived anywhere is another matter.

I assume that Tait, Hebbert and Crombie jackets are all made to a similar spec. all with British size markings.

[Ian M.]

Re: Tait Trousers?

Many thanks gents for the added info. That photo from Lazy Jacks of the Henry Brunet jacket and trousers in blue-grey kersey is very interesting in that much detail can be seen. I'm certainly no expert but the jacket looks to be similar to a Richmond Depot 3, though with only 7 buttons. Tait jackets usually had shoulder straps right? Also, the Taits I've seen (just a few, in the usual printed sources) appear to have a light colored thread in the button hole and top stitching whereas this jacket appears to have a dark thread.

Should we therefore assume that this set was made up this side of the Atlantic from imported English Army BG wool? Another interesting point would be the type of buttons on the jacket. Anyone know?

[jacobite8749]

Re: Tait Trousers?

As a guide:
Does it have British size markings in it, American, or none?
Is the lining linen, cotton, or something else?
Are there buttons marked P.TAIT LIMERICK, Hebbert & Co. Pall Mall, or something else? (James Tait had buttons made up marked R.T. Tait, but these never went on a P. Tait jacket)
In his book on his grandfather, John Waite says that the only way to confirm a P.TAIT is by the buttons,. P.TAIT LIMERICK. Having seen a Crombie jacket, I'd go along with that. All imported jackets made from "English Army" cloth are not just made by P. Tait. various manufactures, Hebbert & Co. as well as J. & J. Crombie, in addition a number of others yet be discovered made them in the UK.

Richmond Dept. made jackets using the same or similar cloth perhaps from 1863 onwards. Houston Dept. also imported the same, or similar cloth (Tait bought the cloth too, he never made it) and made them in Texas.

So, I'd say never say never....

We may never know. The chances of finding that the Adelaide docked in Galaverston on ?? ?? 1864, and the goods were booked in by Ben Doon, shipped to Houston on ?? ?? 1865 and issued, according to his service record to Phil McCavity on ?? ?? 1865 is remote to say the least. BUT????