CS Naval Officer Impression

[allan4570]

I am inquiring if anyone on this forum knows of variations on the CS naval frock coat. Variations concerning the wearing of a coat while on working party detail and every day use aboard ship. An example would be, how US infantry officers would wear a officers version of the army sack coat while in the field or on a work detail, or in the summer months. I would think that the dress frock coat purchased mainly from England would be used more for Quarters and special occasions as dictated by the captain. Any help or ideas on this would be appreciated.

[VMI88]

Re: CS Naval Officer Impression

Allen,

I know this doesn't address your question, but the Alabama Department of Archives & History has a beautiful CS Navy officer's dress coat in their collection. It is made of cadet gray broadcloth, has a roll collar, and British-style braid on the sleeve. It was purchased in England late in the War.

I believe that the Museum of the Confederacy also has a US Navy blue jacket that was used by a CS officer during the Virginia-Monitor engagement. Apparently it was common for pre-War Naval officers to wear their blue uniforms in CS service, at least for the first year or two of the War.

[Matthew Semple]

Re: CS Naval Officer Impression

I believe that the Museum of the Confederacy also has a US Navy blue jacket that was used by a CS officer during the Virginia-Monitor engagement. Apparently it was common for pre-War Naval officers to wear their blue uniforms in CS service, at least for the first year or two of the War.

The coat that you are speaking of is the LT Robert Minor, CSN short jacket. It is a blue kersey tailored short jacket with 18 buttons on the front. I don't have my notes in front of me but will post more about this jacket tonight.

[Tom Ezell]

Re: CS Naval Officer Impression

Apparently it was common for pre-War Naval officers to wear their blue uniforms in CS service, at least for the first year or two of the War.

Confederate naval officers were slow to take to the idea of wearing a gray uniform instead of the traditional navy blue. "Whoever heard of a gray sailor?" is a commonly found remark.

Don't forget a few singes, and the lingering smoky smell of the scuttled ironclad ;-)

[Matthew Semple]

Re: CS Naval Officer Impression

From: A Catalogue of Uniforms in the Collection of the Museum of the Confederacy Page 44

"Lieutenant Roberth Dabney Minor, C.S.N.
Jacket: double breated, 9 button in each row, navy blue wool flannel with no facings or piping, no lining in body, white cotton sheeting lining in sleeves; gold braid Confederate naval master's insignia on cuffs, small Federal Eagle A buttons with backmark: HORSTMANN/NEW YORK."

From: Personal notes taken while at the Museum of the Confederacy

Button holes and top-stitching appear brown in color, possible faded from a darker color. My guess is logwood dyed cotton or linen thread.

From: Echoes of Glory: Arms and Equipment of the Confederacy Page 176

"LT. ROBERT D. MINOR
The first uniforms worn by Confederate naval officers were blue, like the one belonging to Lieutenant Minor (above). Minor, who served aboard the C.S.S. Virginia, was wounded by fire from the U.S.S. Congress in the Battle of Hampton Roads in March 1862."

From: Echoes of Glory: Arms and Equipment of the Union Page 163

"OFFICER'S SACK COAT
ASST. SURG. JACOB SOLIS-COHEN
This assistant surgeon's white linen sack coat bears no sign of its owner's rank. Not officially authorized until 1865, the officer's sack coat appeared in many styles, single- and double-breasted, before then."


I have come across photographs before of Union naval officers wearing these short jackets before 1865. I don't recall ever seeing a photograph of a Confederate naval officer wearing one. LT Minor's jacket was most likely made prior to the war and worn as a fatigue jacket while off duty or during battle.

I don't have a scanner so I can't post the pictures that I am looking at.

I will continue to look through my notes and pictures and see what I can find.

[Matthew Semple]

Re: CS Naval Officer Impression

Confederate naval officers were slow to take to the idea of wearing a gray uniform instead of the traditional navy blue. "Whoever heard of a gray sailor?" is a commonly found remark.

Family oral tradition says that James Allen Semple, Paymaster, CSN, waited until it was almost 1863 before he had his gray frock coat made. He wore blue in the United States Navy for the 11 years prior to the war.

[sigsaye]

Re: CS Naval Officer Impression

Sack coats were a commonly worn garment for Naval officers from the early 1850's on. In the photo of LT Jeffers sitting by the turret of Monitor, he is wearing a sack with 1852 reg rank lace. The issue with Naval uniforms of the period is that neither Navy had any real regulations as to how they were to be made like the Army did. The Navy had no real central supply system, so both Sailors and officers were pretty much left to their on hook to get what they needed away form the main Naval Ship Yards. The reason sack coats were popular with sea going officers was the expense of the frock coat. Some where I have a copy of a letter from a CS Marine officer to his mother concerning his brother. The brother had been a Sailor before the war. The letter does not mention weather he was Naval or Merchant. When the war started, he joined a SC infantry regiment. By 1862, it was decided his nautical skills were much more valuable to the cause than his skills as an infantryman and he was transfered to the Navy as a "Master". This rank relates roughly to the Army rank of 2nd LT, but with status differances.

Any way, the new Naval officer purchased a quantity of jean cloth to have his Naval uniform made. When he reached Charleston, he was informed that Naval officers did not wear jean cloth, that was for Sailors, Soldiers and the working classes. He was directed to a tailor who made him a uniform of one frock coat, one vest and one pair of trousers of fine woolens. The cost was $500. His pay was $40 per month. He wrote home to his mother asking her to get his old sailors pants and jackets from his chest in his room and send them to him.

Additionally, in the Civil War museum in Bardstown KY, there is a jacket that belonged to the XO of CSS Tennessee. It is a common Columbus Depot Army jacket with blue collar and cuffs. It has USN buttons and the threads where his Naval shoulder straps were sewn.

To me this indicates that for Naval officers, the frock coat was reserved for quarters, special occassions and Photo-Ops. The short Naval shell jackets were not that popular with Naval officers as the shell was the uniform worn mostly by Midshipmen. This leaves the sack as the coat of choice. They turn up quite often in photos of USN officers. While I haven't actually seen a CSN officer with one, these guys came from the same Navy and things do not appear to have been that much different. Also something to think about, the sack coat would have been easily converted to civilian attire after the war which could explain the lack of surviving examples.

Steve Hesson

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: CS Naval Officer Impression

Acting Master John Yates Beall, CSN. Private collection.

[sigsaye]

Re: CS Naval Officer Impression

Well, There you have it! I also have photos of USN officers wearing an Army officers five button sack and a USN enlisted Sailor wearing a slouch hat.

Steve Hesson

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: CS Naval Officer Impression

Image similar to J.Y. Beall's, 1st down on left.

http://www.antiquephotographics.com/Format%20Types/dosdemayo.htm

[Matthew Semple]

Re: CS Naval Officer Impression

From the Library of Congress website. On board the USS Monitor, there is a gentleman (sixth from the right) who is wearing a sack coat. He is obviously not one of the enlisted crew given his appearance. There is no visible rank, but his arms are behind his back and there could be sleeve braid on them. If he is not an naval officer or midshipman, my guess would be a piloting officer.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/I?cwar:10:./temp/~ammem_2uHX::displayType=1:m856sd=cwpb:m856sf=01061:@@@mdb=cwar

[allan4570]

Re: CS Naval Officer Impression

Men,
Thank you all for your inputs, comments and pictures. Glad to see there are some men with a naval interest.

[Union Navy]

Re: CS Naval Officer Impression

To quote Steve Hesson from another list, "The regulations are guidelines, not the Bible." Lots of variation. The 1852 regs (the basis for the Confederate regs) make no official allowance for sack coats. Neither do later regs. They are still occasionally seen in images (such as Cmdr. John Rogers, USN, see below). The shell jacket was considered a junior officers' uniform, and was to only be worn at sea. Most of the photos I have seen were of frock coats (as the officers of the Philadelphia, see below). Sack coats are easier to make, obtain and use. I may have to look into getting one in the near future. And, as always, Steve makes the best Navy stuff.

[allan4570]

Re: CS Naval Officer Impression

Matthew, are you still around and involved with the ACW?

[allan4570]

Re: CS Naval Officer Impression

From: A Catalogue of Uniforms in the Collection of the Museum of the Confederacy Page 44

"Lieutenant Roberth Dabney Minor, C.S.N.
Jacket: double breated, 9 button in each row, navy blue wool flannel with no facings or piping, no lining in body, white cotton sheeting lining in sleeves; gold braid Confederate naval master's insignia on cuffs, small Federal Eagle A buttons with backmark: HORSTMANN/NEW YORK."

From: Personal notes taken while at the Museum of the Confederacy

Button holes and top-stitching appear brown in color, possible faded from a darker color. My guess is logwood dyed cotton or linen thread.

From: Echoes of Glory: Arms and Equipment of the Confederacy Page 176

"LT. ROBERT D. MINOR
The first uniforms worn by Confederate naval officers were blue, like the one belonging to Lieutenant Minor (above). Minor, who served aboard the C.S.S. Virginia, was wounded by fire from the U.S.S. Congress in the Battle of Hampton Roads in March 1862."

From: Echoes of Glory: Arms and Equipment of the Union Page 163

"OFFICER'S SACK COAT
ASST. SURG. JACOB SOLIS-COHEN
This assistant surgeon's white linen sack coat bears no sign of its owner's rank. Not officially authorized until 1865, the officer's sack coat appeared in many styles, single- and double-breasted, before then."


I have come across photographs before of Union naval officers wearing these short jackets before 1865. I don't recall ever seeing a photograph of a Confederate naval officer wearing one. LT Minor's jacket was most likely made prior to the war and worn as a fatigue jacket while off duty or during battle.

I don't have a scanner so I can't post the pictures that I am looking at.

I will continue to look through my notes and pictures and see what I can find.

Matthew,
thank-you for the references. I finally acquired a copy of Echoes of Glory and found Lt. Robert D. Minor's clothing!