Need help identifying this style of jacket

[SouthernMag]

I am attaching an image of my gggrandfather taken in his uniform (Confederate, 19th Mississippi Inf. Co. H). I would like to reproduce the uniform jacket but, have never seen one like this. I don't know whether it is a short jacket or a longer frock coat style. It may be difficult to see in the reproduction of the image but, in the original I can see an eye that goes to a hook and eye closure. It appears that the jacket closed down the front with hooks and eyes and the buttons on either side were for show and to make it appear as if it were double breasted. Also, I can see self fabric tabs on the shoulders. Most unusual of all to me is that it appears as if the jacket had a small collar of it's own, independant of the shirt. Does anyone have any information regarding this style of uniform jacket that could point me in the right research direction? I know this image was taken before the Battle of Spotsylvania because Jacob was shot in the face (grazed) on the cheek on the side facing the camera during that battle and in later life photos you can see the groove cut by the mini ball. Since his face is unmarred in this image I must make the leap that this photo is earlier than that battle. The original image is 5 3/8" long by 3.75" wide and is on a heavy cardboard type of stock. There is no tax stamp on the back but the number 583 is machine printed on the back in ink. There is also a bunch of writing in pencil that has faded over the years, the only part I can still make out is his name and the letters Oct. My son sometimes reenacts with us and I thought it would be really cool to make him a copy of his ggggrandfather's uniform. Any info that would help me nail down particulars regarding the cut and style of this type would be appreciated.

On a side note, just thought I would point out the details I can see in the shirt from the original. It looks as though the body of the shirt was made from a striped fabric with a band collar. The buttons appear to have been MOP, two holes.
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Oops, forgot to reconfigure preferences after the crash,

Thanks, Maggie Reese

[LWhite64]

Re: Need help identifying this style of jacket

He is wearing a double breasted frock coat. Also the image is post war, from his Confederate Veteran days, if you look at pictures of the reunions you will see a number of men wearing them.

Lee

[47thNYReb]

Re: Need help identifying this style of jacket

If the image is a reversed image, then the scar is probably on the other side. This is not uncommon. The frock coat certainly looks like the post war reunion versions that I have seen.

[ephraim_zook]

Re: Need help identifying this style of jacket

"If the image is a reversed image, then the scar is probably on the other side. This is not uncommon. "

If the image is reversed, then he'd be facing to the right. You wouldn't be seeing the side of his face that was invisible to the camera!

Ron Myzie

[rebjeb04]

Re: Need help identifying this style of jacket

Hello Maggie,

The jacket does not quite look like the mainstream ones worn by veterans of the era, but it is a reunion jacket. It was probably a home procured version made to look like the old tradition double-breasted frock coat commonly associated with Confederate officers. The ones that were generally sold to veterans of the UCV (United Confederate Veterans) were usually made of fine cadet gray broadcloth and sold at reunions or in the Confederate Veteran magazine. This one looks to have been made from a heavy cotton of some kind.

Always great to hear about those Mississippi soldiers.

[Michael McComas]

Re: Need help identifying this style of jacket

"If the image is a reversed image, then the scar is probably on the other side. This is not uncommon. "

If the image is reversed, then he'd be facing to the right. You wouldn't be seeing the side of his face that was invisible to the camera!

Ron Myzie

Ron,

I guess the question is, which side is the scar on? In a reversing image, you're looking at the right side of his face. If it's a non-reversing image, you're looking a the left. However, judging from the way the jacket is laying, I'd say this is not a reversed image.

I would concur that it looks like heavy cotton of some kind.

Cheers,

Michael

[ephraim_zook]

Re: Need help identifying this style of jacket

Without wanting to make a big fuss over trivia, think about this for a minute. If he was photographed in left profile the image is not reversed, then you'd see the left side of his face, facing to the left. If he was photographed in left profile and the image IS reversed, you'd still see the left side of his face, but facing to the right. You wouldn't see the side of his face that the camera couldn't see in the first place. We've all seen reversed photos where the belt buckle reads "SU" instead of "US". By your reasoning, you'd see the guy's backside rather than a reversed buckle if the image was reversed.

Ron Myzie
Professor of Photography (really!) :)

[Michael McComas]

Re: Need help identifying this style of jacket

Ron,

That's not what I'm saying at all, and I don't think that's what Mr. Rachal meant when he brought up the possibility that the image is reversed. Patently, the image in the photograph is looking to our left, so let's take that as a bedrock fact and not confuse the issue with the possibility that he may suddenly look in a different direction or stand on his head or turn backflips.

We do not know whether that is the left side (non-reversed) or right side (reversed) of his head that we are seeing. That is why I asked which side the scar was on, to gain more information. In the absence of an answer, we have to rely on other clues, such as the way his jacket laps, which would indicate whether he was indeed facing to his right when the image was struck. Assuming it fastens left over right, that's the left side of his face, and the image is not reversed.

However, because the coat is a non-standard pattern, we cannot say for certain that it laps left over right. Indeed, there are extant shell jackets with the buttons on the wrong side, so it's still possible that the scar is on the other side of his head. Perhaps the funky jacket is a photographer's prop to make it look like the image isn't backwards? That would explain the hook-and-eye closure, which is more common in costumery than in military uniforms.

Best,

Michael McComas
only a Nuclear Engineer, but I did pass my Optics test

[ephraim_zook]

Re: Need help identifying this style of jacket

Michael,

Guess I didn't pass my semantics test. In re-reading the posts, I see what you (and he) mean. It didn't seem that way at first reading.

Me, jump first, look second. :confused_

Ron Myzie

[SouthernMag]

Re: Need help identifying this style of jacket

Hi all and thank you so much for the information. I always felt like the jacket was made of cotton, just because as a seamstress I have handled so much cotton and wool and the way the jacket lies on the body along with the dull sheen make it look like cotton to me.

I have another photograph of Jacob, his wife Virginia and their three children, Ben, Ali and Lula (my ggrandmother) taken at the side of their cabin in Michigan City, MS. Lula is about 12 years old in the photo and Virginia is wearing a plaid silk bustle style dress--not the kind with the huge bustles worn in the 1870s to early 1880s but, the smaller type worn during the later bustle era just before the dresses went to natural form, so I figure the image is about 1885-18908sh. Also, since I know Jacob and Virginia were married in May of 1865 and Uncle Ben was ten years older than grandma Lula that would put the photo squarely in the late Victorian period. I have to search for the photo, cannot place my hands on it right now but, I do remember that you can clearly see the scar on his cheek from the bullet, it cut a groove from about an inch below the corner of his eye to about mid cheek. Problem is that I cannot remember which side the scar was on it this photo (sorry, early onset of senility I guess). After Christmas I will mount a serious search for the photo and post it here.

I would imagine grandma Virginia made the jacket, my grandmother told me that Virginia was an excellent seamstress and sewed everything the family wore. She also sewed clothing for my grandma and her sisters when they were young. I have a few of the things she made put away in a trunk.

Although this shoots down my son Chris getting a new jacket :) it does provide a new tidbit of information to add to the Bogard geneology which is always a good thing. We have them tracked back to Denmark in the 16th Century when the name was still Bogaertman. My next move will be to start researching the 19th Mississippi to find out if possible, what they were wearing when they left Mississippi for Virginia. Thanks so much for the interest in my little project and all your good information and help.



Sincerely,

Maggie Reese