Proper flag pole for National colors and guidon

[Jeffrey Cohen]

Would the flag poles be one piece or two piece?
What would the proper lengths be?
Thanks
Jeffrey Cohen

[ley74]

Re: Proper flag pole for National colors and guidon

Union or Confederate?

[markj]

Re: Proper flag pole for National colors and guidon

Greetings,

I recently discussed the question of staffs with several nationally-known flag researchers and, to their knowledge, they have never seen a surviving two-piece staff for any Confederate color they've examined. Two-piece staffs seem have been mostly, if not wholly, a Federal phenomenon. Indeed, relatively few Confederate staffs have survived; in a number of cases, only a portion of the staff remains so it's difficult to tell how long it was in the first place. The lengths vary and were likely driven by the physical size of the flag mounted.

For example, if you look at one of the images taken of Ulysses S. Grant at his City Point headquarters around June 1864, you will see one or more captured ANV bunting-issue flags discreetly leaned against a tree on the left side of the photo. I recently pointed this out to noted flag researcher Howard M. Madaus who apparently had never noticed them before. The staffs on which they are mounted are very long (possibly up to 14 feet!). I'm not sure why this is so but it's possible they were captured and then mounted on U.S. Army Signal Corps signal flag staffs afterwards for some reason. You might also want to look at a well-known wartime image of the 12th Virginia colorbearer, as I recall, depicting him posing with his regimental color. You should be able to figure out the approximate length of the staff (which has a "halberd finial") based on the known dimensions of ANV bunting-issue colors.

I have also done much research on the colors of the 32nd Tennessee (AoT) but still don't have a clue as to what type of staffs (or finials, if any) were actually used--the only reference I've ever found was an 1898 article in the "Confederate Veteran" indicating that the regiment's "First National" flag was carried on a "nice cedar staff." Alas, this staff has not survived although the flag itself is currently on display in the Tennessee State Museum.

If you look in your U.S. Army Regulations of 1861, you will see that standard Federal national and regimental colors were to be mounted on staffs 9 feet 10 inches in length. "Camp colors" and such were, by regulation, to be placed on staffs 8 feet in length although there were undoubtedly variations from this practice. No provision was made for the type of wood used in the staffs although it appears standard furniture hardwoods were overwhelmingly used (e.g., maple, walnut, oak, cherry, ash, etc.).

I would suggest you contact, for Confederate flags, folks like Tom Belton of the North Carolina State Museum. For Federal flags, you might want to look at various on-line exhibitions and flag sites. New York, Illinois, Connecticut, and Pennsylvania might be good places to start. If you have any trouble finding the websites, please send a private message and I'll hook you up. Another excellent source might be "Advance the Colors!" (2 vols.) by Richard Sauers, which discusses Pennsylvania colors carried during the war.

Regards,

Mark D. Jaeger

[Jeffrey Cohen]

Re: Proper flag pole for National colors and guidon

These would be for a federal national colors and an artillery guidon.
A post stated that the pole be 9ft. 10 in. Would that include the spear?
Would a spear be on the guidon as well?
Thanks
Jeffrey Cohen

[markj]

Re: Proper flag pole for National colors and guidon

Greetings,

I would recommend you check out the following websites:

http://www.ilstatehouse.com/

("Illinois State House")

http://www.civil-war.com/

("Civil War Flags of Illinois")

http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/historic/btlflags/btlflagsindex.htm

("New York State Battle Flag Preservation Project")

http://cpc.leg.state.pa.us/main/cpcweb/projects/preservcivwartreasure.html

("Pennsylvania Capitol Preservation Committee Site")

http://www.state.nj.us/military/museum/civil_war/index.html

("New Jersey State Militia Museum")

http://www.state.nj.us/state/museum/exhibitions/collections.html#civil

("New Jersey State Museum Flag Collection")

http://www.cslib.org/ctcoll.htm

("Connecticut State Library Flag Collection")

http://www.ohiohistory.org/etcetera/exhibits/fftc/index.cfm

("Ohio Historical Society Battleflag Collection")

These sites should get you started and give you a good "spread" of information.

Regards,

Mark D. Jaeger

[ScottCross]

Re: Proper flag pole for National colors and guidon

Jeff,

I would suggest going directly to the state museum that houses the flags and staffs of the units you want flag staffs made of. Most are very willing to allow you to do that if you set up an appointment to do so. There were many manufacturers of flags and staffs during the war, and a great variety of points and ferrules. Look at the originals and then shop and compare. It is also not out of the question to have exact copies made from the originals. Kentucky did that with the Mudsills when we reproduced the tin (yes tin!) spear points used by many Kentucky regiments.

[Darrell Cochran]

Re: Proper flag pole for National colors and guidon

These would be for a federal national colors and an artillery guidon. A post stated that the pole be 9ft. 10 in. Would that include the spear? Would a spear be on the guidon as well?

The Curator of the West Point Museum told me via e-mail that he has never seen an example of a two-piece staff for U.S. colors - not in the Civil War and not in the 19th Century for that matter. Does that mean they absolutely did not exist? No, but I'd say they'd be decidedly not everyday or common.

Here's part of the citation from the Regulations on flags and staffs:

1465. Each regiment of artillery will have two silken colors. The first, or national color, of stars and stripes, as described for the garrison flag ... The second, or regimental color, to be yellow, of the same dimensions as the first, bearing in the centre two cannons crossing, with the letters U.S. above, and the number of the regiment below; fringe yellow. Each color to be six feet six inches fly and six feet on the pike. The pike, including the spear and ferrule, to be nine feet ten inches in length (the ferrule in this case is a metal tip for the bottom and not a threaded piece for putting halves of the staff together). Cords and tassels, red and yellow silk intermixed.

There is no provision in the Regulations for guidons for other than companies of mounted regiments. They did however call for "camp colors" for infantry and artillery, 18 inches square on an 8-foot staff - White for infantry and red for artillery.

[markj]

Re: Proper flag pole for National colors and guidon

Greetings,

Okay, let me throw this into the mix. The following is drawn from Major General Sterling Price's G. O. No. 8, 5 June 1861, specifying what colors were to be adopted by Missouri State Guard units:

"III. Each regiment will adopt the State flag, made of the blue merino [wool bunting], 6 by 5 feet, with the Missouri coat-of-arms in gold gilt on each side. Each mounted company will have a guidon, the flag of which will be white merino, 3 by 2 1/2 feet, with the letters M. S. G. [i.e., Missouri State Guard] in gilt on each side. The length of the pike for colors and guidons will be nine feet long, including spear and ferrule. Each company of infantry will have one drum and one fife. Each company of mounted men will have two bugles or trumpets. If the colors, guidons, drums, fifes, and bugles cannot be procured in the district requisitions will be made on the quartermaster-general of the State."
(Source: "Official Records, I. 53. Supplement. Serial No. 111.")

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[justthemiller]

Re: Proper flag pole for National colors and guidon

Hey All,

Tiffany & Co. did produce a "two piece, break-down version" flag pole with their presentation flags but they were not like the modern two-piece versions. About two-thirds of the way down the pole would be a brass sleeve which one could slide down exposing a "hindge" with which one could break down or fold the pole (more than likely used for storage). The pieces themselves did not come apart but were connected by the hindge. An example of these are the Irish brigade flags that were presented by Tiffany & Co. later in the war and are now displayed in the 69th NY armoury in New York city. Sadly, these flags (like many others) are in need of some serious conservation. But anyway, these are the only instance that I am aware of and I do concur with the earlier statements about Confederate poles in that I know of no examples of two-piece poles being used in the south.

James Miller

[Clark Badgett]

Re: Proper flag pole for National colors and guidon

Yep Scott you are correct they were tin. And each issue was a different color. And I've seen all the surviving Kentucky US staffs. I forget how long they were, but quite a few had combat damage.