An Indianapolis Enfield

[Prodical Reb]

Re: An Indianapolis Enfield

Greetings from Afganistan!
I'm currently over here with the 82d Combat Avn Brigade. Many of the original enfields here in the Local National Bazaar (along with Snider conversions) from the same period have very light colored stocks. Unfortuneatley they have 140+ years of wear. Many still wear the MOD Crown with arrow armory stamps and stock stamps. I've even seen some early Enfields with solid bands and spring retainers in the stocks like a Springfield has. They were all "TOWER" marked and dated 1856 & 1857.

[paulcalloway]

Re: An Indianapolis Enfield

Greetings from Afganistan!
I'm currently over here with the 82d Combat Avn Brigade. Many of the original enfields here in the Local National Bazaar (along with Snider conversions) from the same period have very light colored stocks. Unfortuneatley they have 140+ years of wear. Many still wear the MOD Crown with arrow armory stamps and stock stamps. I've even seen some early Enfields with solid bands and spring retainers in the stocks like a Springfield has. They were all "TOWER" marked and dated 1856 & 1857.

That'd be neat to see photos of those Enfields - you got digital image capabilities over there?

[Prodical Reb]

Re: An Indianapolis Enfield

I have access to a digital camera, but it will be another week until the Bazaar comes back. I get them eventually!

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: An Indianapolis Enfield

Hallo!

The "4th Model" Enfields and the "4th Models" used for the Snyder Conversions, can have beech stocks, which often appear very whitish-tanish or off-yellow.

"Afghan market Enfields" can be a strange mix, and also include not only "colonial guns" but also indigenous cobbles, copies, and clones.

Sigh.... even the National Civil War Museum in Harrisburg has put out a number of "super cleaned" guns (the similarity of over-cleaning and over polishing bright on a number of guns seems to be "in house...")

Curt

[SCTiger]

Re: An Indianapolis Enfield

It seems that when we use the generic term "Enfield", it leads to alot of confusion to many new reenactors and even some vets as to what we exactly mean. We ought to have a clear classification of these weapons from the true "Enfields" made in Britain to London Armoury contract weapons and finally American produced "Enfields."

Upon reviewing many primary sources concerning "Enfields" even the veterans seem to refer to every weapon that came from England as "Enfields", eventhough they could have been other types of weapons.

I would classify the weapons according to their dimensions, construction, length, markings etc. I know we can't fit every variant of the Enfield into a few neat categories, but we could start with the most plentiful (common) and work downward. Variant 1, would be the most common Enfield seen during the war, Variant 10 would be super-rare and never seen. This would aid reenactors and perhaps prevent them from reproducing expensive and rare weapons.

[Prodical Reb]

Re: An Indianapolis Enfield

Well, yesterday was the Local National Bazaar here in Bagram, Afghanistan. So after work in the morning I grabbed the digital camera and headed down to the bazaar to find some vintage Enfields. Bingo, there they were! I got some pics of some early Enfields.

The first set is a 2nd model Tower dated 1856 with MOD(Ministry of Defense) insp stamps on the lock plate. Note the spring retainers, solid bands and wide upper band. I believe this is the original stock due to the amount of wear on the forestock. It is worn down very low. It could be bought for $200 US dollars.

The 2nd is a 1860 Artillrey rifle; 2 bands and a steel trigger guard instead of brass. I don't know if this is correct or not. Maybe one of the Enfield experts will comment on this. also note the saber bayonet lug on the barrel.

The last is a fake I believe or one that has been built by a local here. Look at the lockplate lettering. The seriffs on Enfield are too long; same with the seriffs on the V R. The rest looks right but I think it is not original.

See the pics here:

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/phillipsmtea/album/576460762389972617

[MuleyGil]

Re: An Indianapolis Enfield

I haven't been to Bagram since last year. During my visit, there were lots of Sniders, but few 1853s, '56s or '58s. I hope to get over there in May.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: An Indianapolis Enfield

Michael,

Wow! Those are in better condition that I was expecting! I was expecting to see pitted lock plates with no visible markings and barrels brown and rough with age and corrosion.

$200 is quite a bargain! ...hmm... but who knows about getting 'em back stateside!? :tounge_sm

[Michael McComas]

Re: An Indianapolis Enfield

Michael,

Great pics, thanks for posting them. Nice Sniders in the background!

The short rifle looks like a P60 Army Rifle, but I can't tell for certain. Iron furniture would be correct for that model. I have one very similar that has been converted to Mk II Snider action.

The third one, I think, is a bitser, because the stock doesn't look too bad. I don't have my copy of The Broad Arrow handy to check the markings, but I'd guess the stock is original and the lock may have been "refreshed" or replaced.

Mr. Wickett, soldiers are allowed to bring or mail home antique rifles for personal use, provided they get a waiver (easy enough). I have several friends who have brought back some really nice rifles, along with some Khyber Pass Specials (fake Martinis and Sniders). A few of these guns are starting to make their way into circulation on the gun show circuit.

Cheers,

Michael

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: An Indianapolis Enfield

Mr. Wickett, soldiers are allowed to bring or mail home antique rifles for personal use, provided they get a waiver (easy enough).

That's good. For the time folks have to spend over there, its only right that they be allowed to bring home souvenirs!

[MuleyGil]

Re: An Indianapolis Enfield

The hardest thing about sending home the guns is the wrapping.

Bagram AFB has a booth set up so that after you buy an antique (pre 1899) weapon, you go to the booth and do the Customs forms. I mailed home two Sniders and two Martinis in Kabul. Your package has to be sent registered mail, covered with brown butcher paper, and no clear tape can be showing. All seams are covered in brown tape, the type that has to be wetted down with a sponge. Then the postal clerk has to stamp all of the seams.

THEN you fill out the registered mail paperwork, have the package weighed, and fork over the cash.

I may reconvert the Snider with the 1862 lockplate back to a muzzleloader with a custom barrel.

[VMI88]

Re: An Indianapolis Enfield

The 2nd is a 1860 Artillrey rifle; 2 bands and a steel trigger guard instead of brass. I don't know if this is correct or not. Maybe one of the Enfield experts will comment on this. also note the saber bayonet lug on the barrel.

I bought a similar Enfield at Bagram last summer: it has a steel trigger guard and buttplate. As far as I can tell they are original parts.

The interesting thing about these Enfields is that they are still used. Several I bought smelled of black powder when I cleaned them. Actually it was more of a smokey smell -- no telling what kind of cheap homemade powder they were using! The bores on the Enfields are universally bad, even if the exterior is decent. The Snyders, by contrast, had nice clean bores. I was told the Afghans don't use them because they can't get ammunition, which probably explains the difference.

[Enfield]

Re: An Indianapolis Enfield

Man, I've been wasting my time in Iraq! I want ALL that stuff in those photos. Nice-looking Martinis in the background too.

I agree with Michael - the 1860-dated gun looks like an original Short Rifle (P56 or P60 - hard to tell - the rear sight might say - IIRC, the P60 had a 1000-yd rear sight).

The 1857-dated gun - hard to say without looking real closely at the markings, but for sure, "it ain't right." First off, the RSAF at Enfield didn't go into mass production until 1858 (not to say that there were no Enfields dated 1857 and marked ENFIELD, but they probably didn't go to India). If this gun was made in 1857, even at the RSAF, it would most likely have been a 2nd Model (like the 1856-dated gun). The rear sight looks like a Snider sight to me. However, the stock does look right. Maybe the proof marks too - can't really tell from the photo. Most of the NW Frontier-made guns didn't have much in the way of proof marks (if the barrel was made from scratch). And the crowned Broad Arrow on the lockplate looks right on - the local makers generally left this off. So some things look OK, others not. I'd guess it was probably a locally-assembled parts gun. Most of the tribesmen-made Enfields I've seen looked cruder than that, with real obvious hand-made parts (RSAF guns were made by machinery).

Anyway, it's nice to see that stuff is still there ... maybe for my 2008 deployment I can finally get to Bagram.

Geoff Walden

[Enfield]

A 15th Ky. Inf. Enfield at Springfield

Many of the Enfields (and other guns) in the Springfield Armory have been extensively cleaned. When I visited there in the late 1980s, the curator told me that most of these guns had the usual age/dirt-darkened stocks, until they cleaned them up. There is another Enfield there with elaborate stock carving, and I don't recall now whether it was this Indiana gun or that other one, but the curator told me that NONE of this carving was visible before they cleaned the gun - it was a big surprise to them! The bright metal is also likely a result of the armory cleaning process.

Geoff Walden

Here is a pic of that other Enfield I was talking about, at the Springfield Armory Museum. IIRC, this is the one that had no visible markings until they cleaned the stock, which was so dark with accumulated crud that these wonderful markings couldn't even be seen! This carving actually had red wax worked into it - a real work of art. In case the photo doesn't display well, the markings are:

J.S. McConnell. Co. A. 15th. Ky Inf
PerryVille. Stone River. Chicamauga
And Shermans Campaign
To Atlanta


Geoff Walden

[markmason]

Re: An Indianapolis Enfield

Springfield Armory NHS has many great displays. One of them is of soldier-marked muskets. With the Colts winning the Superbowl last night, I thought it might be fun to show some pics of this Enfield.

Go Colts!

On the voyage to Fort Fisher, Colonel Stiles was promoted to Brevet Brigadier General, being given command of the 1st Division of the 23rd Corps, and Brevet Brigadier General Thomas Jefferson Henderson of the 112th Illinois was given command of the 3rd Brigade, which consisted of the 112th Illinois, 63rd Indiana, and the 140th Indiana Infantry regiments. Additional troops of the 23rd Corps continued to arrive on the 8th, 9th, and 10th of February.


My Great-Great Grandfather Frederick Mason served in the 140th Ind. The 140th was brigaded with the 63d Ind. :wink_smil