P53 Enfield barrel weight

[buckandball]

I didn't find this specific info via a search, apologies if it is there.

It is common knowlege that the repro barrels of Armisport and Euroarms 1853 Enfields are hevier than the originals (isn't this also common with the Springfields?).

Are the barrels thicker; is the barrel wall thicker and therefore the stock is inlet more than an original to accomodate the wider barrel?

Are the barrels the original contour and just made of a heavier alloy?

Anyone have an original and a repro to compare with a set of calipers?

Thanks

[Craig L Barry]

Re: P53 Enfield barrel weight

See Columbia Rifles Research Compendium 2nd Edition (2007) p. 77. The information there is for the US 1861s, but the reproduction Euroarms Enfield is similarly "oversized". The Armi Sport Enfield barrel is closer in overall dimension.

A few years ago Rick Simmons, one of the Watchdog editors, tested some reproduction Enfield barrels from Armi Sport (Armi-Chiappa) and found them to be just slightly heavier, but using a micrometer within a few thousandths of an inch in size at the tip and just slightly thicker in dimensions at the breech compared to an original specimen in his collection. The real shortcoming of the Armi-Chiappa barrel is the breech design, a topic for another day.

While not scientific or statistically valid it is worthy of mention that for my own gun, a "put together" Enfield from dis-associated parts, an Armi-Sport barrel dropped right into an original gun stock produced in 1862 by Birmingham gun-maker W.D. Sargant & Son. In fact, I wish all the other parts (like the rebuilt original Tower lock assembly) required as little fitting to the stock as that repro barrel to that particular BSAT marked gun stock. The Birmingham commercial P-53s were mostly grade 2 hand-made guns and the parts (even barrels) were not expected to interchange. In fact, most commercial P-53s (with the exception of LA Co) did not have interchangeable parts and I probably was very lucky fitting that repro barrel.

The Euroarms reproduction barrel is another story. It is a much thicker barrel with a more dramatic taper beginning 8 inches down from the tip, and it was over a pound heavier in weight. Good information but not actionable, ie: it would be decidedly ill-advised to attempt some sort of barrel re-contouring to duplicate the exact size of an original barrel.

[Todd Watts]

Re: P53 Enfield barrel weight

Ben, I do a lot of work on these repros and also have had my hands in originals. My observation has been that even among the originals, some are noticebly heavier than others. The contours of some are thicker in the breech area than others, and some have thicker walls. Two barrels with identical external contours will weigh differently if one is .577" (25) and the other is .58" (24) because the smaller bore has less metal bored out than the larger bore. Over a 36+/-" barrel legth, this tiny dimensional variation can add up to almost a pound.

However you are correct that Armis and Euros do weigh more than virtually all of the originals. The Euro especially is heavier and its contours are larger than the Armi or the originals. The Parker Hale has the closest barrel dimensions to the original I have seen. Keep in mind that these barrel makers today are concerned about safety and must meet standards for modern pressure limits. The steel is of better quality and the contours and wall thickness is kept heavier to allow them to meet these standards and still have enough of a "fudge factor" that hopefully if some numb skull double or tripple loads his with a ball the barrel will not blow up.

[buckandball]

Re: P53 Enfield barrel weight

That is along the lines of info I was looking for. Fear not, no intent to turn a barrel or size something. Not worth the time when suitable subsititues are available...

Many thanks

Ben

[Gary of CA]

Re: P53 Enfield barrel weight

With respects to the barrel, how do the English made Parker-Hales stand up?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: P53 Enfield barrel weight

Hallo!

As an aside... it also depends upon which "Generation" of "Enfield" one has. Over the decades they have changed. Meaning, a 1985 Euroarms might be again slightly different than a 2005 Euroarms.

I seem to have misplaced a 2000 Euroarms barrel I thought I could get my hands on weigh against an original lying about. I tmust have fallen over in a messy storage room and been buried beneath piles and piles of Stuff.

At any rate, a random sampling of just one original weighed in at 4.25 pounds. You can weigh your repro barrel and compare. (I am feeling lazy and do not want to take apart any to measure.. :-) )

I could take "measurements" from a number of original Enfields but it would be kind of a waste of time as originals and repro's are an Apples and Oranges kind of thing and it would be tedious to mark and measure at the same place on both barrels.

Plus the differences would not matter much as the repro is wider, bulkier, thicker, and tapered differently to the point one cannot realistically turn (no pun intended) a repro into an original in size and dimensions.
Of course, if one were having an Enfield custom-made to original perameters... ;-) :)

Curt

1. mark

[Craig L Barry]

Re: P53 Enfield barrel weight

Curt is right and makes a couple very good points. The various Italian reproductions have distinct "generations", I do know some of the earlier Armi-Sport P-53 parts (serial numbers in the 500s) do not fit their later Enfields and vice-versa. Whatever the case, somewhere along the way the Euroarms just kept getting bulkier and heavier all the way around. I have also seen some older Euroarms Enfields from twenty years ago that were less bulky and they had weird brass barrel bands. No original P-53 Enfield has ever been found with brass barrel bands. Those older EOA lockplates were marked LONDON ARMOURY CO, with a U, not London Armory Co. as they are now.

Parker-Hale barrels made (and marked) BIRMINGHAM, UK were actually the only reproductions produced in .577 cal. Both Italian Enfield barrels are marked .58, though there is some variance up and down, none except the P-H are actually .577. The Parker-Hales are now just another nameplate slapped on a Euroarms repro. They are currently made in Italy by a division of Euroarms called Armi San Paolo and they both share the same shortcomings. These share little in common with the original Parker-Hales, except for the name.

If you can locate a nearly twenty year old P-H barrel marked MADE IN BIRMINGHAM (pre-1990) you will have a very decent barrel of close to original size, at least for the RSAF model on which it is based. Look for a serial number below 15000. My understanding is that the serial numbers above 15000 are made in Italy regardless of what the barrel may be stamped.

[Todd Watts]

Re: P53 Enfield barrel weight

As to Parker Hale barrel life, it is every bit as good as the Armi Sport or Euroarms brands. At Stones River Nat'l Battlefield, we have a couple of Parkers in inventory to be used during demonstrations. They are a good 20 years old and in excellent shape strength wise. These are not fired with projectiles, but we do ram paper (2 sheets of toilet paper and the papaer hull) with each shot. I don't think Parker Hales are around "new" any more. At elast that's the impression I have since I have not run across a new one in years.

Todd Watts

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: P53 Enfield barrel weight

Hallo!

Ah, for the love of a progressive depth .577 barrel... ;) :) :)

It is hard to impossible for me to keep track of the "comings and goings" of all the repro's in the past 50 years staerting with the "Zouave" in about 1957... but..

I seem to recall that the "true" or British Parker-Hale P1853 4th Model started out as the Musketoon in 1974. Followed by the "Naval Rifle" in 1976.
A few years later, they came out with the Rifle-Musket bu timmediatley had problems with two complaints:

1. It had a two piece spliced stock (hidden under a barrel band) but worse

2. There were numeorus reports that the breech plug leaked hot gasses which were scortching the stock mortise. And that water or cleaning fluid was leakinmg/seeping out of the breech plug when cleaned vertically.

After some fussing and fighting, and returns, the "gas leak" problem was resolved and production resumed.

But in the early 1980's the Italians "copied" the Parker-Hale line of three versions, and Parker-Hale was being "squeezed" by the more popular and purchase price cheaper Italian PH clones and went out of the CW business.

Then, in the late 1980's or very early 1990's, the opoeraiton was sold to the Italians who produced a cheaper and purchase price cheaper version of the original PH line (which rumour had as at the end being Italian made anyways.)

Older lads than I, or those with better memories may be able to amend or correct the PH history for me.

Curt

My brother-in-law still has his 1981 vintage PH 1858 Naval Rifle that he used once, and loaned to his younger brother for deer hunting three or four times...

[Craig L Barry]

Re: P53 Enfield barrel weight

The Parker-Hale Enfields had a couple distinctive features besides the .577 barrel. The lock plate was case hardened through the old "bone charcoal" method (supposedly) vs the cosmetic chemical finish used on the EOA and Armi-Sport. Also, their barrel had progressive depth rifling, like the original P-53.

The legend goes that P-H produced their Enfield repro from a set of original gauges loaned by the Tower museum (or was it the RSAF?), which were for the 4th type P-53. Hence, the later Baddeley bands etc were copied. Apparently the front swivel was not included w/ the gauges so they copied one from a later British military arm, and thus got that weird offset to the stud on the front swivel. The Italians copied these mistakes faithfully.

I had a 2nd hand P-H for about five years, serial number around 4500 which I fitted with an original Tower lock, and found it to be serviceable but in need of de-farbing to the same extent as the Italian P-53s which were copies of it. The P-H was lighter in weight and of course the barrel was better, and .577. Other than that, not too much to recommend it over the Italian copies. The stock was thinner through the wrist than the Italian repros, as I recall. The P-H was a good enactor gun which was only taken out of service because I finally finished my P-53 "put together" project which was (is) much better in every respect.

I always thought that P-H bit the dust in the mid-90s as a result of Britain's very restrictive gun control laws passed in the wake of the Dunblane school massacre. Probably that legislation combined with competitive pressures did them in because the P-H Enfields were not inexpensive. British ACW enactors now have to use smoothbore repros and register for a shotgun permit to do that.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: P53 Enfield barrel weight

Hallo!

If I remember my "British" ACW correctly... ;) :)

The Brits had to wait in line for special order made Enfields with no rifling (from PH as well as Italy).
In that way, the Enfield counted as the one "shotgun" a Britisher was allowed to have, after the paperwork and a determination by the local police department that there was a need for it and that the lad was "okay" to have a firearm.

Curt

[Todd Watts]

Re: P53 Enfield barrel weight

The poor Brits are forbidden from owning any rifled barrel guns, including repro-muskets. We ran into this fact recently at Shiloh when the 18th MO (US) out of Britain joined with us. Their guns appeared just like most of ours, only the barrels were smoothies. At London customs, they said an inspector had to stick his finger in the bore to feel for rifling before they could check the guns into luggage. One poor guy even came over with a non-firing musket because his papers authorizing him to have a working musket had still not been approved by the all-knowing gov't powers that be. Sorry, I'd rather die than live in such a place.

If I remember right, Parker Hale was in business in the early 1990s. Dixie Gun Works was carrying their guns at least through 1994-5 because I was really looking at getting one of the Whitworths made by PH then. About 1999 I got another Dixie catalog and the PH guns were no longer listed.

[Tarheel]

Re: P53 Enfield barrel weight

May a "poor Brit" respond with a few points of clarification. In the UK all firearms ,except antiques and non-firing replicas (see below) are required to be licenced. There are two forms of licence, a Shotgun Certificate and a Firearms Certificate. The former covers all smoothbore longarms and, in my experience, is not too difficult to obtain providing one can show good cause for possessing such a firearm (military re-enactments are considered "good cause"). Due to its relative ease of acquisition most re-enactors select this method of licensing their weapons and accept that their muskets must be smoothbored.
A Firearms Certificate, which covers the possession and use of all rifled longarms, even muzzle-loaders, is altogether more onerous and complicated but necessary if one wishes to live-fire any rifled longarm; most UK re-enactors don't. Anyway it's not a great problem as, in terms of muskets, the external appearance is identical, whether rifled or not.
Antique weapons do not require any licence (providing they are not used; if used, the requirements for smoothbore and rifled weapons noted above will apply) Currently, the possession of non-firing replica weapons and de-activated weapons does not require any form of licence although this is now a matter of serious political debate.
Also, if one wishes to use a musket one also requires a Blackpowder Licence. This comes in two forms; Acquire and Acquire & Keep. The Acquire version permits the use of black powder at an event; the Acquire & Keep licence allows one to store and hold a specific quantity of powder in an approved storage container at home. Again, it has been my experience that neither of these licences are difficult to obtain providing one observes the rules and can cope with the form-filling.
All of this may sound hugely complicated to our American chums but, once one understands the system, it's not too bad. It certainly has not prevented the formation and continuing growth of groups such as The Lazy Jacks of which I am proud to be a member.
One final note. The LJs as a group have attended many US events amongst which were Mansfield, Franklin, Corinth and, recently, the fantastic Banks Grand Retreat (the event of a lifetime!!!!) Not once, when passing through British Customs, have I experienced any barrel being inspected for rifling. The fact that the individual weapons were identified on a Shotgun Certificate was adequate for the officials.
So, living in the UK and doing what we do is not that bad, certainly it does not provoke the death wish in us as it would seem to do in Mr. Watts' case!!!!
Kind regards,
Patrick Reardon,
The Lazy Jack Mess, UK

[wmkane]

Re: P53 Enfield barrel weight

According to The Confederate Field Manual (p. 52), prpared by the Ordanance Bureau at Richmond in 1862:

"Enfield Rifle - Many are in the C.S. service, obtained by purchase and capture--so called because made after the model of the English government rifle, manufactured at Enfield. It has three grooves.
Calibre, - - - - .577 inches.
Length of barrel, - - - 39. "
Length of arm with bayonet, - 73. "
Weight of arm complete, - - 9.19 lbs.
Weight of projectile, - as rifle musket
Weight of powder, " "
Twist, - - one turn in 6 feet 6 inches."

Hope this is helpful.

[Todd Watts]

Re: P53 Enfield barrel weight

Interesting stuff Patrick. Wasn't trying to offend you Ol Chap if you took offense. It is extremely complicated to us, especially those of us in the "red states" where we just go buy a gun when we have a notion to. I would personally never submit to that type of subjugation especially on gun rights. Being a gunsmith, I am simply not willing to abide by such nonsense. If I want a pound of powder, I go buy it. If I want a new rifled musket, I buy it. If I want a cannon, I buy one (Oh man do I wish!), and if i want virtually any other gun or ammo, I just go buy it. My "reason" is "because" and that is good enough for us here.

The 18th MO guys were griping about their gun laws around camp as we were talking about the guns. We'd never seen a smooth-bored Enfield before and it got us talking.

Off to fire a few hundred rounds in my AK now.... :)

Todd