Hunting guns use

[Todd Watts]

Re: Hunting guns use

Not to dredge up this old discussion again, but I found some "proof" that can be added to the topic. I was reading recently in "Nothing But Victory" about the Army of The Tennessee's forming and ran across a couple of references to what I am certain has to have been the "Brown Bess" muskets in the hands of the Federal militias forming in Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, etc. The troops Grant had as far down as Ft. Donelson were using many older guns of all varieties and the term "older English flinlock muskets" and "English muskets of the 'Tower' pattern" were mentioned. Also, a reference was made about these being leftovers in militia arsenals. Since the term "Brown Bess" was an Englishman's term and not widely known or used by Americans until many many years later, it stands to reason that these left-over smoothbores and flinters of "English" make and "Tower" design had to be variations of the several "Brown Bess" muskets. The men knew they were British via word of mouth as to where the came from but also because of the crowns on the lockplates. The only name on the Bess is "TOWER" so that has to have been the Amercians' name for them. These guns had to have been stored for many years in militia arsenals all over the region (including most likely in Southern arsenals) to be readily sent to mustering camps in 1860-1861. There would not have been time otherwise for Indiana agents to race to England to buy anything to get back in time to start the war effort.

Last week I was shouldering my Bess as a CS infantryman for a county celebration at Murfreesboro and of course having to explain to the visitors why I had a big flintlock. Another re-enactor there that is a volunteer at Stones River with me has some balls and conicals that are actually from the Stones River battle area that people have turned over to the rangers over the years that he carries as part of his character. One is a big ball which we'd assumed was a .69" ball until he handed it to me and I put it to the muzzle of the Bess. It is a .75" ball, probably actually measuring about .73"-.74" but is certainly made for .75" smooth-bores. The only muskets I am aware of that could have been there firing .75" projectiles is a Bess unless perhaps some fowlers were being loaded with single balls like that which to me seems unlikely. It is too small to have been much use for one of the Pottsdam .80" guns. Just thought I'd add this bit to the old thread in case anyone was still interested in this issue.;)

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Hunting guns use

Hallo!

True.

But with the almost "generic" use of those terms, we scratch the surface as to whether the references might be anything from Long Land Pattern, Short Land New Pattern, India Pattern, New Land Pattern, (the so-called "1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Models"), or Pattern 1838, 1839, or 1842 muskets.

In my biased opinion, I seriously doubt that large numbers of "1st" and "2nd" Model "Besses" (or M1763/66 "Charlevilles) were to be had other than the Southern militia arsenal surviving oddity and the scattered relic taken down from the mantle to be contributed to the Confederate cause in 1861.

Just another bias on my part, while one can make a fair case for them in small numbers- I "really hate" to see out-of-the-box "1st and 2nd Model" muskets be used as part of a post 1861 impression.
That stretches the fiction and the Believeable Image passed the impression breaking point.

;) :)

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Hunting guns use

Hallo!

True.

But with the almost "generic" use of those terms, we scratch the surface as to whether the references might be anything from Long Land Pattern, Short Land New Pattern, India Pattern, New Land Pattern, (the so-called "1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Models"), or Pattern 1838, 1839, or 1842 muskets.

In my biased opinion, I seriously doubt that large numbers of "1st" and "2nd" Model "Besses" (or M1763/66 "Charlevilles) were to be had other than the Southern militia arsenal surviving oddity and the scattered relic taken down from the mantle to be contributed to the Confederate cause in 1861.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

To follow up with Curt's post, the most predominant projectile recovered from the Dover area, hands down, from the Union areas are .69cal Minnie's, indicating to us at least, that many of these weapons were converted. There is no doubt many of the weapons in Grant's army at this time were older, but I'm thinking more M1816's, M42's and like Curt pointed out pattern 38-39's. Potsdams, Austrians, etc also graced the ranks. For every .58minnie, you will dig 10 .69 roundballs and/or .69 conical balls.

Getting back to the original thread of hunting rifles used, I was suprised to see no mention of the 14th Missouri (66th Illinois) who utilized the Dimmick American Deer and Target Rifle predominatly through Corinth and in limited numbers through the Atlanta Campaign, while all the long using Henry's. Dimmicks were not used out of lack of, but rather by design.

John Walsh

[roundshot]

Re: Hunting guns use

I have an old "Ketland & Co." fowling piece of Virginia provenance that I use for early militia impressions. Lock view attached. The "thistle" stamp is seen on some models. These were almost like "Sears" kits back then and are seen in endless variations.

[ACo.]

Re: Hunting guns use

Todd, you are not "dredging up" anything, simply continuing what I consider to be one of the most interesting and, to me, enjoyable threads ever seen here.:) Interesting to see your information on the British musket in use by Union forces in the West, very interesting. I might remind you that the term "Brown Bess" was in use and can be found in print even in the US shortly after the American Revolution. I do wonder about the source of the ".73 - .74" diameter ball that your friend has, not that it didn't come from the battlefield as stated, just that the standard British ball for the .75 British musket from the end of the 17th Century through the time of our Civil War was .68 - .69 cal. to allow for easier (faster) loading and I am not aware of any American ammunition makers making a cartridge with a ball as large as .73 - .74 although it is possible that some were made that large for common 10 gauge shotguns or fowlers in use?

As far as use of British muskets in use by Southern, specifically Virginia, troops early in the War, I refer all to my post (#53 in this thread) on 03-10-2008 at 06:08 PM. They were definitely in State arsenals and were issued and used in the Civil War, at least in the initial stages, but were withdrawn for rear echelon use or storage for emergency after the first year.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Hunting guns use

I also believe that virtually all of the flinters were out of service by the spring of '63. We know that many were in-use on both sides in '61 and through the spring of '62 especially in the CS ranks. The .69" bores were common throughout the war on both sides and was a fairly common bore size in the European guns as well it seems. Grant's troops were using all sorts of junkers until he took Vicksburg where he captured large numbers of "English arms of much higher quality than our own" and had his men trade their clunkers there for these (probably) Enfields. The guns he then turned over to the War Dept. as "captured Confederate arms from Vicksburg" were largely his own. Almost certainly he'd already gotten all the flinters out of his ranks by that time, since he'd passed through several battles already where percussion guns were freed up from the hands of both sides, and because plenty of time had by then passed for the European arms to have come over and passed through the Eastern theatre to reach the West (IMO). I looked back in the book again last night to find the references and found it in the chapter dealing with Belmont, where it called many of the guns obsolete smooth bore flintlocks and "Tower" by name. In the earliest chapter, I think around page 16 or so it mentions the various guns handed to these Northwestern militias, and here it does not name "Tower" but mentions the Dresdens, Belgians, Austrian, and dates of US guns as well as calling some just "Harpers Ferry" which I preume is the 1816 or some of the '42s made there. As was mentioned, none of these would have appeared like-new at the time they went to the militias although they probably were burnished bright along with other guns. But the deep rust pitting from that length of storage with the poor care most such guns received would have remained. I am purposely letting mine age, taking care of the bore and lock parts only so that I can quickly get mine some rust - a practice that I must admit is nearly killing me to let happen. From the sounds of these descriptions and my own studying of the militia arsenal inventories, it appears that the Western troops of both sides can just about portray the 1st year with an iron pipe strapped to a stick and look reasonably correct.;) Poor guys.

Oh, Thomas, I saw you posted at the same time I was so I missed yours until after I'd posted. I have some original "Brown Bess" balls that were said to have been recovered from a shipwreck (who knows). Don't know but they are thoroughly white now. They measure 2 different calibers, .715" and .730" I have found. I have a dozen of them in a bag. They drop right to the bottom of my Bess without having to ram them. I am not sure how thick the oxide on them is, but it could be that the smallest is a .69" with that much oxide. Probably, like all things "gun" in the pre-industrial revolution, the balls were cast using the moulds available at whichever armory was casting them. The last of the "Bess" versions was in use soon after the War of 1812, so as late as 1814 "Bess" muskets were being captured here. Many were in the Carribbean ports as well long after this, where US-bound ships were docking. This is a time period of a mere 50 years from the end of the "Bess" predominence in the British Empire/World and the opening shots of the US Civil War. Considering how many various "Bess" guns survive today around the world to me it just stands to reason that quite a few were still operational in the States in 1861. I am of the notion that quite a number of those left here were themselves called "fowlers" because in essence that is what they are, a 10 gauge shotgun. Cut back (sporterized) that is all the gun really is. Likewise, the Charlevilles and similar older smoothbores could also be called a fowler and many surviving examples of these old guns of the late 1700s - very early 1800s have had stocks split away and cut back. Surely not all of that sporterizing was done after the Civil War years. As for the name "Brown Bess" being in use, yes it surely was in use. All British soldiers knew it (and many stayed here or, like Pat Cleburne, came here with that term in their vocabulary. I just tend to think along the lines of the ordinary Joe the Farmer, handed a gun which he wrote home about. If an ordinary guy today were handed a Brown Bess at a living-history event and told to name it, odds are extremely high he would have no idea what to call it other than perhaps "Tower" or "some British gun." The common soldier in 1861 had been born in the early to mid 1840s, quite a while after the "Bess" and it age of guns had become obsolete. These guys probably did not widely use the term "Brown Bess" when talking about the guns they came in contact with. Likewise, Charleville or Liege could be names used like Tower because these are names stamped onto guns. The Dresden guns or Belgian guns could be named Lieges since that is stamped on the parts unless the guns arrived in a box with Dresden or something printed that the troops would start to know and talk about. One thing is for certain, we do not have nearly the variety of small-arms crap that we need to portray the 1861-1862 Western theatre. This is our excuse to get more toys!

[ACo.]

Re: Hunting guns use

Todd said:
"This is our excuse to get more toys!"

:D