Hunting guns use

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Hunting guns use

Correct, which makes it difficult to know what those .75 and .69 "British muskets" were exactly. However, as historical interpretors we would not assume those remnants were Rev War or War of 1812 flintlocks. There are enough clearly documented infantry arms, foreign and domestic, to use including as the subject of this thread "hunting guns"...

Since the first of this year I have picked up two very nice Euroarms (one percussion, one flint) repro "Kentucky" type American mountain hunting rifles to complement a CVA flintlock I had on hand. None of the three was more than $200, and one was just $175. Used of course, and a bit rustic looking which I consider "perfect" for my intened plan of use in NPS historical interpretation for late 1862 CS usage at Stones River.

These hunting rifles in either flint or percussion are very accurate to the time period, and will serve to broaden the public's understanding of the bravery of those men who charged their better equipped Federal adversaries, while armed only with civilian hunting rifles and shotguns. Watching a demonstration of loading and firing (or sometimes not firing) these weapons will be a step up for what is normally demonstrated. Also, the Stones River NPS has their own US 1816 repro in flint for a side by side comparison. I have agreed to volunteer one weekend per month at the STRI battlefield park, excepting of course the scheduling conflicts during the weekends the Federal unit (that Todd Watts and I both disgrace with our presence) is volunteering out there already.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Hunting guns use

The Bess I actually have is the Short Land Pattern which was being issued to British troops until 1790. I went with it specifically because is can go 1812 Rev War, & these would only have been perhaps 70-80 year old guns at 1860. These certainly could have been new enough if they'd been cared for well to be brought into CW service. There is a painting I have seen showing a family in a parlor seeing the son off to war. Over the mantle is an old flintlock musket. The painting was done after the war I think, and I can't think of the artist. A print of it used to hang in my grandparents' home but who-knows where it ended up. From what I remembered, it was something liek a Bess and the older man, a grandfather perhaps, in the painting seeing the young man off seemed to be wearing an oldr soldier's cap or something. My impression always was that the older man was from the 1812 era, and the musket over the fireplace probably had been his service arm, and now he was seeing the newest generation off to his own adventure. I always liked the picture and that is the angle I am heading toward. It is one of those questions that "nobody can say it was done, but an equal number cannot say it was not done." Lord-knows an awful lot of these guns got taken home to the cabins all over the country, especially in the south, both by Americans and indians.

[Campjacksonboy]

Re: Hunting guns use

Well as I said there is one sitting in a museum down in Grand Gulf, Mississippi. I will have to defer what model it is to another day when someone who knows their british muskets better than I do, actually travels down there and looks at it. I'd be interested in finding out.
Frank Aufmuth

[Rob Weaver]

Re: Hunting guns use

For those of you who are intending to use flintlocks in an early war setting or scenario, I would recommend a modern, but wise safety addition to the musket. 1) Put a frizzen stall over the frizzen and 2) screw a flashguard to the frizzen spring. Both are available for a pittance from sutlers who deal in 18th century goods. The flashguard especially is a good precaution should you be firing in the ranks. Remember that when a flintlock is primed, it is set to go off, and if for some reason your half-cock should fail, the flint is going to strike the frizzen.
(Both items are required on flintlocks used by even the most historically-conscious 18th century reenactors, and as someone with 30 years of shooting flintlocks, I'd highly recommend them.

[JWNathan]

Re: Hunting guns use

I love this discussion! My grandpa on my moms side of the family told me one of the first rifles he shot was his great great grandpas Flintlock! They had brought it from Tennessee around 1869 I belive. As a side note my grandpas first rifle was his granddads 7mm mauser brought home from Cuba.
-Jesse

[Enfilade]

Re: Hunting guns use

Jehu C. Lamb(1811-1875)aka "Jay Lamb" produced rifles in the Jamestown North Carolina style. Letters handed down to his granddaughter indicate his travels throughout the South selling his rifles to folks in South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Tennessee. His best customer was a Mr. Hobson, who owned a store in Alabama. In early 1861, he ordered 100 rifles. A letter from William Lamb dated March 24, 1861 states that "two boxes were shipped last Thursday, one from Henry Wright with 30 rifles in it, and one from William lamb with 25 rifles. He then states that another two boxes will be shipped over the next month".

On November14, 1861 Mr. Hobson wrote Jay Lamb to inform him that he had enlisted in the 20th Alabama Regiment and was stationed at Camp Goode, Dog River Factory, near Mobile. He acknowledges having received a recent letter from Jay Lamb offering more rifles, and replies "as to your rifles I have sold every one of them to Colonel Garrot for the use of the Confederate States and when I received your letter I immediately went to the Colonel about the matter and he at once wrote to the war department for the money for them and told me that he expected the money would be here for them about the first of next month and when I receive it I will write you at once about it. I want you to send me my rifle at once as I may want to kill Yankees with." He adds in the letter that... "If with the blessing of god we should return safe from war, I would like to carry on our business as usual for nearly all the rifles that are sold are at present in the use of the Confederate service and ruined as for county use. I have at least a dozen bespoken in this company already."

Also, William Lamb aka "Capt. Billy", was also a widely known gunsmith from Jamestown, NC also was involved in the making of these rifles. In a letter written December 3, 1861, by private George J. Huntley to his father from "Camp Fisher" near High Point, NC, states; "They can't get arms for there are about five regiments of volunteers here and at Raleigh to be armed yet. OLD LAMB is here now making guns, but he is getting along slow."

Jamestown, NC was recognized as one of two early rifle making centers in the state of North Carolina. The other was Rowan/Davidson county. In the 1790's there were over 75 gunmakers. The common misbeleif was that Quakers were pacifists and wouldn't make guns. However, they were often the makers and Quakers made up a great amount of the Piedmont population of North Carolina. They made hunting rifles in basically 3 sizes- 120 balls of lead to a lbs.(Squirrel Rifle), 100 balls of lead to a lbs.(Turkey Rifles), and 80 balls of lead to a lbs.(Deer Rifles). When the American Civil war began H.C. Lamb & Co., and Mendenhall, Jones & Gardner were awarded contracts and advanced $5000 to produce 20,000 rifles. Neither could fill those contracts and NC cancelled Lamb's contract in 1863 and Mendenhall's in 1864.

I also have a sixth plate tintype image of Private Jeremiah Jaco, Company A(Towles Company), 35th Tennessee Infantry, "Mountain Rifle Regiment", AoT, holding one of these "Jamestown" style rifles. His tintype was made while at Camp Smartt, tennessee after he enlisted September 6, 1861.

These are very different looking weapons. They are characterized as walnut, curly maple, or tiger maple percussion longrifles with octagonal barrels, stock patchboxes in elaborate designs and with wooden ramrods.

Needless to say these weapons were not as advanced as the Enfields and Springfields, especially for army use. However, given the shortage of arms at the beginning of the conflict, they were mustered into use until they could be traded for better weaponry.

These letter excerpts are from "The Longrifle Makers Of Guilford County" by C. Michael Briggs.

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles

http://www.northstatrifles.com

combinations@northstate.net

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Hunting guns use

That is good reading. When you look at the open battlefields (I am thinking of Stones River as I write this) and consider the number of these mountain rifles in the CS ranks...it puts the courage and valor of the men charging into a better armed force with military rifle-muskets and muskets into an entirely different light. This is not the turkey shoot at the county fair, but that's the rifle more than a few Confederates were armed with, some still in flint. These mtn rifles are not going to be easily loaded with round balls 3x a minute once the barrel gets hot...so what you have at that point is a 7 lb club.

This is a story we will be telling at the Stones River NPS later this summer as well as hopefully doing demos with flintlock "Kentucky" and American mountain rifles and comparing them to US model muskets and rifle-muskets. It should make for some interesting living history.

When I see one of these mtn rifles in the ranks, as I sometimes do, I am always impressed that somebody tried to get a historically accurate representation of AoT arms on to the battlefield or at least something other than an Enfield rifle-musket. Is the math on the "gauge" right, ie: 80 balls to a pound of lead (80 gauge) would be too small for a deer rifle, the balls would be about BB sized. As a basis of comparison, 20 gauge is about .62 cal, I would think most of these rifles were between .32 (around 40 balls to a pound of lead) to .45 cal (around 30 balls to a pound of lead)? Is it not a linear progression?

[Todd Watts]

Re: Hunting guns use

A pound equals 7000 grains in weight. Thus, weigh a spherical ball of lead to get its weight in grains, divide that from 7000 and that is the number of balls one pond of lead can produce. British gunsmiths called this "bore size" similar to how Americans called it "gauge." For instance, a ball of "caliber" .570" weighs 278 grs, which, when divided from 7000 gives us the bore size of 25. The .580" is a tad more and rounds it up to 24, one less complete ball from the same pound of lead.

A .321" ball weighs 50 grs, meaning 140 balls come from a pound, a "140 Bore".
A .440" ball weighs 128 grs = 54 bore
.445" weighs 133 grs = 52 bore
.451" weighs 138 grs = 50 bore
.490" weighs 177 grs = 39 bore
.570" weighs 278 grs = 25 bore
.680" weighs 473 grs = 14 bore
.730" weighs 586 grs = 12 bore


Clear as mud?

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Hunting guns use

Todd:

Interesting. It is good to have a gunsmith "on staff". By the way, after the sweet re-bluing job you did on the boy's de-farbed Enfield, he is eschewing the brightly polished look for the first time in seven years. Besides the barrel bluing and case coloring the lock, adding the makers mark in the stock channel, the rack number on the ramrod and butt plate, the inspectors marks, stock recontouring then refinishing with boiled linseed oil. His Enfield had a decent de-farb job to start with, but it is a whole lot better now.

We may need a new term for this, how about the "re-de-farbed" Enfield?

[Todd Watts]

Re: Hunting guns use

Hmm, de-de-farbbing? That actually was a funny story a few months ago when a customer mailed his original Enfield to the Blockade Runner and asked me to de-farb it. When they called and said they had an original to be de-farbbed, I said "huh?" Turned out it was one of those recently discovered Enfields out of Nepal and was a strange version using spring clipped barrel bands, but was otherwise a standard 1853 style 3-bander. It had a bunch of original but "foreign" markings all over it (I assumed Nepalese) and he wanted those removed and correct BSAT markings applied. I did so, but had to tell him that it was not really correct based on the wierd version. He only wanted it as a wall-hanger.

I guess I sort of de-re-farbbed it.

By the way Craig, as time goes on, you and he will discover a few other de-farbbisms in it not readily seen on the assembled piece.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Hunting guns use

You mean the maker's name added under the barrel? Did you do something else, too?

[Todd Watts]

Re: Hunting guns use

Found that one eh? Well, Tim showed me that there were sometimes matching "Roman numerals" on barrel undersides, lock plate tops and stock channels as well, so you have those now. The back of the lock plate has the maker's name as well. Just some little things that I am doing now even though they aren't seen on the outside. I figure that since I already have it apart I might as well add more correct marks even though they won't be seen by the spectator in the field. When the owner takes it apart, it is just something else to say "hey - this is a neat mark!"

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Hunting guns use

I did notice those roman numerals but did not remember to add them to the mental list of changes you made. The "Swinburn" you had (that Stones River has now) to copy the JS anchor, etc had roman numerals under the barrel (XVI). I primarily needed the stock recontoured so all the rest was an unexpected bonus. I believe the "roman numeral" marks were struck in the metal on the lock and barrel to match the Enfield components during "setting up". The Lorenz used numbered parts, too.

[John-Owen Kline]

Re: Hunting guns use

What happened to the interesting thread on hunting rifles?

[Todd Watts]

Re: Hunting guns use

I have found that the Roman numeral system is handy to have when doing 2+ guns at the same time. That is probably why they used the system as well, to identify fitted parts of the same gun while in a shop with many other parts. Like everything they did back then, there was a logical reason if we just think about it as one of them.;)