Hunting guns use

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Hunting guns use

Jehu C. Lamb(1811-1875)aka "Jay Lamb" produced rifles in the Jamestown North Carolina style...

These are very different looking weapons. They are characterized as walnut, curly maple, or tiger maple percussion longrifles with octagonal barrels, stock patchboxes in elaborate designs and with wooden ramrods...

These letter excerpts are from "The Longrifle Makers Of Guilford County" by C. Michael Briggs.

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles

http://www.northstatrifles.com

combinations@northstate.net

Also see; LONGRIFLES OF NORTH CAROLINA (2ND EDITION).
by Bivins Jr., John.
George Shumway Publisher York, PA 2006

____________________

Mark, the styles you described are actually quite common and would have been very well known in any NC household. Thanks for posting that though, its good stuff.

The NCMoH is all over the map with its nomenclature of NC made long rifles, especially the 19th century hunting percussions; classifying them all as shoulder arms and calling them everything from Kentucky to Plains rifles. But when viewing them even in print, you will notice that they all bear some of our distinct decorative features.

They are very different from any mass produced Hawkin or Euroarms inventory. Don’t buy one of them and expect to call it North Carolina without a lot of expensive alterations.Though the fine Lamb example I have attached is a half stock a majority of them are full. http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/MOH/vfp...ABASE=71886516,

For those of you without access to Bivin’s or Briggs’ books, a short visit to the museum’s website will provide a brief introduction to the styles. If my direct link does not work then type rifle in the search function and you will get about 750 hits with ten or so dealing with the subject at hand. Ignore most of the notes and concentrate on the styles. http://ncmuseumofhistory.org/nca/index.html

If anyone is interested in having a period correct hunting rifle or fowler custom made PM me for the information

I’m not sure where hunting rifles actually fit into NC military interpretation but there is certainly a place for them on the prewar or home front.

[Rob Weaver]

Re: Hunting guns use

Very interesting brasswork on that rifle.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Hunting guns use

Sgt. Charles Bennett of the 9th Michigan Inf. wrote of Forrest's raid on Murfreesboro that the Confederate cavalry that attacked them were "armed with shotguns that fired big shot which came like hail..." The 9th Mich. had recently been issued new Lorenz rifles which he said seemed to be decent guns. When Forrest first attacked the 3rd Minn. Inf. a little ways off, it allowed the 9th Mich. time to prepare just a little before they were hit. Bennett stated that the Michiganders got behind a picket fence at Mr. Maney's house (Oaklands Mansion) and as the Rebs raced by the Lorenz-armed men would shoot. He said that "any Secesh that dared show his head within a half a mile was sure to get the benefit of a ball." By contrast, the little picket fence did enough to protect the Michigan men from the shotguns that they effectively held Forrest's troopers at bay for quite a while. Shotguns were evidently extremely common in July '62 with the CS cavalry while better organized Union units at least were being issued good-quality military guns.

[John-Owen Kline]

Re: Hunting guns use

Here is a good copy of an 1830’s North Carolina style hunting rifle.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Hunting guns use

That is a pretty rifle. That is not a typical example that would have been seen in many homes much less brought into the service though. Way too pretty!:D Need to shed the brass in favor of nothing or iron. The example in the Tellico Plains, TN museum of a known hunting rifle used by a local CS soldier is very similar to that one, Mr. Kline, except it is outfitted in forged iron and has no metal patch box or ornamentation. The vast majority of the old guns we would need to be using would be very crude, the sorts of guns Pa had had the local blacksmith / gunsmith build for him and had had to repair a few times himself or by the blacksmith before the war called it to service.

But, those rifles simply do not sell well enough for us to see anyone making them. We'd probably need to buy kits and build them for that purpose, taking care to make them appear as crue as possible during construction. Hmm, might be a new project for me.;)

[Thomas Alleman]

Re: Hunting guns use

Not to bring up the Brown Bess thing again but they were produced by states during the rev war and were quite common gun during the War of 1812. Until the US made the 1816 there were wide usage of the Brown Bess being used in militias. I suppose they were sold as surplus after the war and used by civilians as shotguns or barn guns. Why change to percussion when flint works fine. There are still brown besses today so they can survive. I am sure we are using way to many military guns early in the war. Just think what a local militia would look like today if raised in a short notice. I have M-1 Garand ready for action with a 1940 serial number. I can see everything under the sun coming out early in the war. There is also that John burns with his flintlock pic. Just because percussion was introduced in the 1840's not everyone wanted to pay to do it.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Hunting guns use

Hi,

I agree with Mr. Alleman, in the fact that in the early part of the war alot of the weapons and equipment came from all the wars before. These older weapons would have been even more heavily used in the western threater of war. A good example of this is the 9th Arkansas, 45th Tennessee, and the 19th Tennessee at Shiloh, where they were armed with, flintlock muskets, squirrel rifles, double-barreled shot guns, Hall rifles, and a mixture of conversion muskets. Like Mr. Alleman said if a militia unti was raised today could you even think about all different weapons that would be used, the same would be in the Civil War.

Andrew Kasmar

4th Missouri Company E

[ACo.]

Re: Hunting guns use

I hate to say it, because in posts a few years ago I said that I thought the issue of British flint muskets to Civil War troops as unlikely but see the following:

"Message from the Executive of the Commonwealth,
with Accompanying Documents,
Showing the Military and Naval Preparations for
the Defence of the State of Virginia, &c. &c."

Dated: June 17, 1861.

at:http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/message/message.html

In it there are several mentions of as many a 500 English Flint Muskets being issued to Virginia troops, among them are the following:

Captain BOYKIN--Western Virginia.
* 200 English Flint Muskets,
* 200 Extra Flints.

Colonel JOHN MCCAUSLAND--Putnam County.
* 500 English Flint Muskets,
* 500 Extra Flints,
-----------------------
* 10,000 Cartridges.


and there are several other entries of English flint muskets being issued to Virgina troops by the government of the Commonwealth. Also, we have to remember that flint muskets were issued by both sides early in the War, though the vast majority were of American manufacture. The battlefield at Manassas yielded up many flint guns during clean up afterwards. These had been in armories waiting for issue and many were in new condition. The US government is on record as buying new India Pattern muskets from Great Britain in the late 18th Century before the armories at Harpers Ferry and Springfield came into full production and they were very popular with the US Navy and especially the Marine Corps, both were still using British muskets during the War of 1812. The American issue of flintlock musket died hard, the last flint muskets on issue to US troops (in quiet areas) were withdrawn as late as 1863 and flintlock parts have been found in Confederate ares at Saylors Creek.

[ACo.]

Re: Hunting guns use

Double post, sorry....

[ACo.]

Re: Hunting guns use

That is a pretty rifle. That is not a typical example that would have been seen in many homes much less brought into the service though. Way too pretty!:D Need to shed the brass in favor of nothing or iron. The example in the Tellico Plains, TN museum of a known hunting rifle used by a local CS soldier is very similar to that one, Mr. Kline, except it is outfitted in forged iron and has no metal patch box or ornamentation. The vast majority of the old guns we would need to be using would be very crude, the sorts of guns Pa had had the local blacksmith / gunsmith build for him and had had to repair a few times himself or by the blacksmith before the war called it to service.

But, those rifles simply do not sell well enough for us to see anyone making them. We'd probably need to buy kits and build them for that purpose, taking care to make them appear as crue as possible during construction. Hmm, might be a new project for me.;)

Todd this was an old post by you, sorry I missed it way back when. That rifle is a quality piece, made for a gentleman of the upper class of course, but the average rifle was not a rusty, crude piece of work unless it was for someone that had no property and was at severely loose ends - someone like that would have stolen a better gun than what you describe. The patchbox remained common on the American rifle for as long as the muzzleloading rifle was made. For those that would want to go the route of using a civilian arm for early war militia or a late war home guard impression, I know of at least half a dozen gunsmiths that will be happy to build reproduction of civilian rifle from the mid to early 19th century for the use by reenactors and other living historians and their products are in great demand with up to a 2 or 3 year wait. They will make one as plain as you like, but like the originals, they will be fully functional, safe guns for use. Brass parts will not be a problem, that was the most common metal used on American sporting rifles before the War. Brass does not cause a problem unless someone insists on putting a modern shine to it, brass dulls quickly and doesn't reflect light anywhere near as much as burnished steel. I think maybe you were think about the hog rifle that was kept in the barn or smokehouse and only used at slaughter time when the farmer didn't want to dirty up the good rifle? Not something Pa would want to send his son (or himself) off to war with. As far as cost for a new one? If accurately built by a quality maker, be prepared to pay $1200 or more - likely more. The "kits" available on the market are not anything like original rifles and won't pass a "10 yard" examination by anyone knowledgeable about pre-Civil War civilian firearms in general or the American longrifle in particular so they are a waste of money for our purposes.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Hunting guns use

Not really. The most common rifles available back then were the fairly crude looking rifles and shotguns. The commoner families had 1 or more guns in the cabin or farm house. They could not afford fancy brass inlays or German silver trigger guards, etc. These "niceties" were useless items to these folks who need a reliable gun and no frills. In today's museum collections, we see far more of the pretty rifles with silver & brass pieces than there were in comparisson to the cruder versions. This is a simple matter to figure out. Pretty guns are used less harshly than uglier guns, and are cared for better by owners that see them as special items. The old "hog gun" or "corner gun" was not pretty and when Pa died, the sons passed it down and these tended to eventually be thrown away. Patch boxes, or sliding wood lidded compartments were common, but as common were simple depressions carved to hold a smear of grease for lube, or nothing at all.

From my study on the 18th-19th century American arms, it seems that the Eastern seaboard and especially New Englanders had more ornate muskets survive through today than the deep South and old western States have had. Those are pretty guns for sure, but the "Southern Iron Rifle" was more common than what private collections or museums portray today. Pretty ornate longrifles bring more visitors and command higher values than thick ugly iron-fitted utility guns. Around TN, I have seen many more ugly originals in private hands than the pretty ones. Most of these are missing locks, have smashed stocks, are rusted beyond repair, and generally not thought much of except as a conversation piece. This shows that there were a lot of them and they were working arms, not mantle pieces. Were I a poor man headed off to fight a war, I think I'd be better served with the ugly gun that works and that I was familiar with than the pretty gun. Not to say there weren't any fancy-grade Lancasters out there, but it doesn't make sense to me to see those and not scores more ugly guns.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Hunting guns use

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and reliability more than aesthetics was where the value was placed. Additionally, if you consider the purpose of the American Mountain rifle (for instance), would you want a nice shiny patchbox reflecting light at your target or not? Probably not. This was a tool, and the appearance of surviving specimens is utilitarian.

[Todd Watts]

Re: Hunting guns use

Speaking on this subject, Craig, when you next visit BRI, check out the LONG rifle Jerry bought locally. He found it at a local yard sale and it is the perfect example of the common "squirrel rifle" that would have been murderous as a sharpshooter rifle if it saw service. I have never before seen a longrifle that long before. Looks to be about .36" and is as long as a long-land-pattern Brown Bess. I believe it was a flinter that was converted with a drum to percussion, but the lock is missing. It had doble-set triggers and all iron hardware. Must have been an accurate meat-getter at one time, but you cannot fire it accurately off-hand due to the weight.

[ACo.]

Re: Hunting guns use

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and reliability more than aesthetics was where the value was placed. Additionally, if you consider the purpose of the American Mountain rifle (for instance), would you want a nice shiny patchbox reflecting light at your target or not? Probably not. This was a tool, and the appearance of surviving specimens is utilitarian.

Craig, I have to disagree with you, especially your last sentance. Why in the world would a so-called American Mountain Rifle be included in this discussion? That was a breed of rifle rarely seen east of the Mississippi, especially at the time of the American Civil War.. I assume that you are speaking of the rifle generically called "the Hawken" rifle? Well, plenty of that type rifle were brass mounted as well as being iron mounted. The more common rifle used in and before our time period in the mountains of the west (the Rocky Mountains) were long rifles from the shops of the big makers in Pennsylvania, Lehman to name one of the biggest and most, if not all of them, were brass mounted. Brass furniture was used for the reason that it was less expensive than iron - cast or forged - and easier to work with and easier on tools (files were expensive and sandpaper was still a scarce item), plus it was traditional. Any gunmaker that built rifles was going to use brass for those reasons. And, let's remember that civilian rifles were not the only ones to have brass furniture - In US service, the Contract Rifles of 1792 and 1807 were all brass mounted. The Model 1803 Rifle, the first standard military rifle used by the US government (and some early-War Confederate units) was brass mounted with a big brass patchbox and last but certainly not least, the M1841 Rifle (the so-called "Mississippi Rifle") was brass mounted to include its patchbox - a rather large one. IIRC, some of the early production M1855 Rifles were brass mounted as well. Last but not least, let me restate, brass will not reflect light unless polished (burnished) to a high degree. In field use, it dulls very quickly, especially when in contact with black powder, human hands and even humidity. It does not turn green when in everyday use, it simply dulls, this is particularly true of the soft brass alloys in use at the time. The shiny brass "problem" is simply not relevant.

"Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and reliability more than aesthetics was where the value was placed."

Well, that may be true, but the gunsmiths working in the 19th Century had inherited a proud tradition of functionality as well as beauty in the form of their creations and would have been puzzled by your statement, probably insulted. And their customers would have taken their business elsewhere, even for low priced examples. More later...

[ACo.]

Re: Hunting guns use

Speaking on this subject, Craig, when you next visit BRI, check out the LONG rifle Jerry bought locally. He found it at a local yard sale and it is the perfect example of the common "squirrel rifle" that would have been murderous as a sharpshooter rifle if it saw service. I have never before seen a longrifle that long before. Looks to be about .36" and is as long as a long-land-pattern Brown Bess. I believe it was a flinter that was converted with a drum to percussion, but the lock is missing. It had doble-set triggers and all iron hardware. Must have been an accurate meat-getter at one time, but you cannot fire it accurately off-hand due to the weight.

Todd, what is the outside diameter of the barrel of the .36 caliber rifle?