Richmond Depot II

[Parault]

Would it be appropriate to wear a RD II in the Trans Mississippi area of operations? I have tried to do research on this,including this website. As a member of a unit that is an ANV unit I wear a RD type II which is accurate for my impression. There are not many ANV protrayed units in our area,but there are some. Most of the events that I attend are in the Arkansas,Texas,Louisiana,Oklahoma area. Some events are farther out than this,however,I am trying to see if any Trans-Mississippi units in this area were issued them,or any of the RD types.
I wish I had the luxury of being in the Virginia area. I could then not worry about what would be more accurate. I have a civilian sack coat and a civilian frock coat. I know that I could use one of them instead. When we are protraying another unit I usually wear the sack coat. If someone could point me in the right direction to reasearch I would appreciate it.

[DougCooper]

Re: Richmond Depot II

Would it be appropriate to wear a RD II in the Trans Mississippi area of operations? I have tried to do research on this,including this website. As a member of a unit that is an ANV unit I wear a RD type II which is accurate for my impression. There are not many ANV protrayed units in our area,but there are some. Most of the events that I attend are in the Arkansas,Texas,Louisiana,Oklahoma area. Some events are farther out than this,however,I am trying to see if any Trans-Mississippi units in this area were issued them,or any of the RD types.
I wish I had the luxury of being in the Virginia area. I could then not worry about what would be more accurate. I have a civilian sack coat and a civilian frock coat. I know that I could use one of them instead. When we are protraying another unit I usually wear the sack coat. If someone could point me in the right direction to reasearch I would appreciate it.

No, an RD pattern jacket is not appropriate for a Trans-Miss impression since the Richmond Depot did not supply troops west of the River...or in the mid-west for that matter, except those ANV troops sent west with Longstreet.

Here is a good place to start on Trans-Miss uniforms: http://www.nsalliance.org/uniforms/csuniforms.htm

This is an excellent place to start on CS uniforms in general: http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...links.php?c=14 Note the articles by Les Jensen on CS uniform jackets.

You will note the vast resources in the link just above, which is the uniform research articles portion of the forum.

Oh, and take Phil Graf up on his offer!!!

[tmdreb]

Re: Richmond Depot II

I have yet to see any reference of uniforms being shipped from the east to the Trans-Mississippi. Usually, it was almost the other way around, with cloth produced in or imported through Texas shipped across the Mississippi.

While there were garments worn in the TM theater that resembled those issued in the east, your civilian garments may serve you better. Or, sell the RD II and buy or make a more TM specific jacket.

You're in a great region. There is a rich and fascinating CW era history out here, and many of the "rules" about what happened in the east simply don't apply. You are wise to embrace your local history and heritage and guide your impression appropriately.

What specifically is your impression for TM events? I'd be happy to help you with your research in any way I can.

[Old Reb]

Re: Richmond Depot II

P.L.,
I always heed Mr. Graf's advice and in this case he is dead on, and most of the time I heed Mr. Cooper's advice. Good question and good answers. How refreshing!;) Embrace the region inwhich you live and hone your impression in that direction.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Richmond Depot II

Hallo!

It could not be said any better...
IMHO, it is great to interpret local history or site-specific history where possible.

(Although it can get complicated when one is a mountainman in Ohio or a Roman legionnaire in Indiana...). ;) :)

Curt
Who was just looking at an F & I War Highland unit portraying Culloden Moor..

[DougCooper]

Re: Richmond Depot II

The good news we are much farther along in Trans-Miss uniform research because of Messrs Graf, Mobley, Smith, Baker, Schwarz, Adolphus, Ezell, Arliskas, Moore and McDonald, etc. The bad news is every time we answer a question, 5 more pop up. As Churchill said, it is a riddle wrapped in an enigma

Here are some other good reads:

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Qu...d/cdjacket.htm Geoff Walden's ground breaking piece on the surviving Columbus Depot jackets, one of which may have been worn in the Trans-Miss.

http://www.geocities.com/hardeeflag/...e/prentice.htm - the Prentice jacket is one of the stranger garments that survive, but not the strangest.

[Parault]

Re: Richmond Depot II

Thank You Gentlemen for your replies. I will read the mentioned articles and take notes. Your help in this matter is greatly appreciated

[Tom Ezell]

Roundabouts a' plenty...

(there was a CCG article by that title some years ago... by John Pagano if memory serves well.)

Please remember that Jensen's typography of the "Richmond Depot pattern" refers to particular examples of a common period garment that was known at the time as a "roundabout." Another general term for these is a "shell jacket." Common characteristics are the 6-piece, waist length body, variations come in the sleeves (one piece, like the Columbus jackets or two-piece), cut of the collar, the number of buttons, etc..

While there are no known shipments of Richmond clothing to the western theater, there are plenty of photos showing T-M troops wearing roundabouts of various styles. And incidentally, the County Cloth Richmond pattern makes a good base to craft one of these types of jackets from... whether you're copying one from a particular image or trying to call it a "commutation-style" jacket.

The Richmond Depot Type II has some distinctive features, specifically the epaulettes and the belt loops, as well as the 9-button front, which make it sometimes difficult to "pass" for another style of jacket, but a roundabout of that style wouldn't exactly be unthinkable, either.

[Parault]

Re: Richmond Depot II

That maybe something for me to consider,Tom. I might be able to rework/modify my jacket then.

Thank you for saving me money.

[Tom Ezell]

Re: Richmond Depot II

P.L.:

Take a look through Roberts & Moneyhon's Portraits of Conflict: A Photographic History of Arkansas in the Civil War, which has a large assortment of images, though all studio shots, of Arkansas troops in various types of jackets. This should give you a little something to aim for. While the Military Board seems to have focused on "coats" (e.g., the Arkansas frock coats) for issue, there are also ample records of "jackets" being issued as well, as these were more economical in terms of both material and effort.

A good jeans shell jacket, 6-part body, 2-piece sleeves, will serve you well for a great variety of impressions.

Tom

[roundshot]

Re: Richmond Depot II

Attached are two photos. One of CS cavalry General James McIntosh, killed at Pea Ridge in March 1862. The other is of two Rebs of unknown origin in Richmond Depot Type IIs. You be the judge as to the similarity of the jackets. It is documented that a considerable number of Richmond rifled muskets were sent to the Trans Mississippi in 1862 that found their way into some of the high numbered Arkansas regiments.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Richmond Depot II

Hallo!

To play Devil's Advocate and further the discussion... ;)

These are "Richmond Depot Type II's," or Arkansas troops, why?

Curt

[Tom Ezell]

Re: Richmond Depot II

Attached are two photos. One of CS cavalry General James McIntosh, killed at Pea Ridge in March 1862. The other is of two Rebs of unknown origin in Richmond Depot Type IIs. You be the judge as to the similarity of the jackets. It is documented that a considerable number of Richmond rifled muskets were sent to the Trans Mississippi in 1862 that found their way into some of the high numbered Arkansas regiments.

One of the poins made above... The jacket style was pretty common across the country during the late 1850s and 1860s, and is better called a "roundabout" or "shell jacket" than a specific nomenclature like "Richmond Depot Type II." One example that we can bicker about would be that McIntosh was killed near Leetown, Arkansas, on March 7, 1862; while the Richmond Depot was still making what the nomenclature calls "Type I" jackets at least through the early fall of 1862. Another point is that McIntosh, a general officer, was unlikely to be wearing a Confederate-issue enlisted man's jacket, especially at this time in the War. All officers' clothing, especially in 1862, was private-purchase, typically tailor-made.

Don't get too hung up in the nomenclature, which is 1980s vintage. Look at the clothing items themselves for what they have to tell you about what styles were in use in a particular place and time.

[roundshot]

Re: Richmond Depot II

Tom: We are in "violent agreement" about the nomenclature; it was simply used by me here since that was the thread's subject. And you are right, there is certainly nothing in the way of breakthrough fashion about a nine button shell with shoulder straps, pretty common garments in most state militias. That's my point, there seems to be a good bit of myopia that all jackets fit neatly into some depot category a la Jensen.

As far as the introduction of the so called "Type IIs," photo evidence seems to indicate their issue sooner than Fall of 1862. The are seen frequently in Mast's "State Troops and Volunteers" on North Carolinians who joined or were conscripted into the ANV in the Summer of '62. Most have the distinctive wooden buttons.They are also seen on some of the LA dead in Gardner's Hagerstown Pike series from Antietam. Who know, maybe sooner? Certainly based on Antietam photos, there is little to document the extended use of the "Type I's" which which are so widely promoted in 1862 event guidelines nowadays.

As far as a CS General wearing a coat with woodies, I have wondered that myself. Hopefully, further evidence will unravel the mystery.

[hiplainsyank]

Re: Richmond Depot II

Sir-

You could save your RD2 for the occasional trip back east, and use your civilian coats, especially the sack coat, for events in your area. You could "militarize" your sack by putting tape on it, also; thus giving you coats for east, west, and all around civilian impression.

Just a thought for your overall wardrobe to allow maximum flexibility.