question on forming the company - for the drillheads

[john duffer]

This is probably a hopeless question but someone may have run across a piece of research. One difference between English and French drill manuals in the early 19th century is in company formation, the English use tall men on the flanks/short in the center while the French use tall on the right/short on the left. Prior to Scott's TACTICS 1835, the US manuals I've seen use the English method, in 1835 Scott gives a detailed explanation on how to form the company using the tall on the right/short on the left. TACTICS 1835 is largely based on L'ORDONNANCE DU ROI 1831. L'ORDONNANCE indicates this is the first time the tall on the right/short on the left is prescribed. The foreword list changes made to the 1791 version and the reasons for the changes. It explains that if the front rank is taller than the rear then the rear can't fire horizontally and therefore details tallest on the right, etc to address the problem. And my question - unless it's well hidden in some obscure place, the French don't give any information on forming the company, so where did Scott get his method ?

[floridawar]

Re: question on forming the company - for the drillheads

The simple answer (without much effort): Scott's 1835 method of sizing and forming a company is pretty much the same as that used in his 1825 manual (of which the militia abstract can be seen on the drill network site). Seminole War reenactors in Florida have used both of the above systems, and they work well in forming with rear rankers slightly taller than the men in front of them. When initially sizing, all that is necessary is for each man to see that he is shorter than the man in front of him before fronting and forming in two ranks. (though three ranks is included in the 1835 manual, these formations were suspended as the work went to press).
I do not know what method of sizing and forming was used with the 1815 infantry manual which preceeded Scott's systems.

James "Archie" Marshall

[john duffer]

Re: question on forming the company - for the drillheads

"The simple answer (without much effort): Scott's 1835 method of sizing and forming a company is pretty much the same as that used in his 1825 manual (of which the militia abstract can be seen on the drill network site). "


Well actually, Mr. Marshall, they're very different - 1829 ABSTRACT & it's predecessor use the English "tallest on the flanks/shortest in the center" & 1835 TACTICS uses the French tallest one end/shortest the other. I've been fortunate enough to do the 1829 method a couple of times and even a small company gives the illusion of even heights. Plus you have cool commands like: "Platoons - Right and left—FACE - MARCH." I believe the English vs French slant to be the result of a small professional army vs. a large national army with a new levy called up each year but that doesn't address my question - did the 1835 TACTICS method of forming the company spring from the womb fully armored like Athena or is there a missing link manual ?

[floridawar]

Re: question on forming the company - for the drillheads

Honestly, I see no difference in these two manuals method of forming a company by height other than the wording of the text and process. Section 431 from the 1829 abstract given below notes the men fall in tallest on the right and shortest on the left, effectively what is also the case in the 1835 tactics (no. 419 below)
Here is the text from the 1829 abstract from Scott's Infantry Tactics (1825):

SECTION III.
SCHOOL OF THE COMPANY.
To Rank, Size, and Form the Company.
430. THE men being assembled in one rank, at shouldered arms, and having quickly fallen in, as nearly as may be, according to height, from right to left, the first sergeant will command,
1. Company. 2. Right—FACE. 3. Size—MARCH.
431. At the second word, the whole rank will face to the right; at the third, the men will change places, so that the tallest man be on the right, the second tallest next, and so on successively to the left. The first ser*geant will then order,
1. Front. 2. Right—DRESS.
432. The sergeant will then direct the man on the right to call one, the next two, and so on alternately from right to heft. This being effected, he will command,
1. Form ranks. 2. MARCH.
433. At time word MARCH, the even numbers will step obliquely to the right, and rear, so as to cover the odd numbers.



Here is the text from Scott's 1835 manual:


Manner of forming Company
419. The whole company being assembled on its ground, the sergeants, by the command fall in, will cause the rank and file (corporals and privates) to form in one rank, faced to the right, and in the order of height from right to left, the tallest man on the right, (now head of the rank,) the next tallest man immediately covering the first, and so on to the left or rear of the rank, in which position will be placed the shortest man.
420. This being promptly effected by the sergeants, the first sergeant will command:
Front- FACE.
421. The left guide (second sergeant) will now place himself on the left of the rank, and the first sergeant will promptly command:

1. In three (or two) ranks, form company. 2.
By the left flank. 3. Left- FACE.
4. MARCH.
422. At the third command, the whole rank will face to the left, except the guide and the man on the left, who stand fast.
423. At the command march, the whole of the men who have faced to the left, will step off together; the second on third men, counting from the left, will place themselves in the centre and rear ranks respectively, behind the man next to the guide, and face to the front; the three following men will in like manner, on closing up, form the next file, and all the other men will come successively to form files, three deep, to the right of those already established.
424. Two ranks, from one, will be formed in like manner, and on the same principle.



James Marshall

[john duffer]

Re: question on forming the company - for the drillheads

I'm afraid you stopped reading a few paragraphs too soon :) - you're barely half way at paragraph 433 - the men are sized and ready to start forming. It's a clever but slightly complicated system as the tallest half of the company forms the rear rank and as para 439 states: " the company is thus formed in two ranks, the tallest men alternately on the right and left of the ranks to which they belong, and the men of the rear rank respectively taller than their file-leaders. "


434. The first sergeant will then divide the company into two platoons, and command,

1. Second platoon. 2. Forward—MARCH. 3. HALT.

435. At the word MARCH, the second platoon will step forward one pace. and halt.

436. The sergeant will then order,

1. Platoons. 2. Right and left—FACE. 3. MARCH.

437. At the word FACE, the first rank of each platoon will face to the right, and the rear rank to the left. At the word MARCH, the man on the right of the front rank man of time first platoon stands fast, the others closing upon him; the men of the rear rank will march, successively turn to the right, and form on the left of the front rank. At time word MARCH, the second platoon will follow the directions given to the first, except that the front rank wilt advance, followed by the rear rank, both forming in front of the first platoon, and thus becoming the front rank of the company.

433. The sergeant will then order,

FRONT.

439. At which word the whole will front, and the company Is thus formed in two ranks, the tallest men alternately on the right and left of the ranks to which they belong, and the men of the rear rank respectively taller than their file-leaders.

[floridawar]

Re: question on forming the company - for the drillheads

Indeed! Tall-short-tall it is. I mentioned the 1815 US drill by Scott etc. It is pretty much the same as the 1825/1829 tactics we have been discussing. Here is its method:

"Front--at which word, the whole faces to the front, adn the company is thus formed in two ranks; the tallest men alternately on the right and left of the ranks to which they belong; and the files to the rear rank successively taller than those of the same file before them...."

As background to the French 1832 system: according to John Elting's "Swords around a Throne" this system originated in Napoleon I's call for revisions to the 1791/1809 drill, and was initially submitted for use by the French in 1812, though the wartime exigencies of the next few years prevented its universal adoption by french forces, until 1832. Elting suggests this was intended as a simplification of sorts.
Might I suggest that the French system of the early 1830s simply omitted the last element of forming "tall-short-tall", and thus Scott's 1835 translation of this system ommitted the same.

James Marshall

[john duffer]

Re: question on forming the company - for the drillheads

" Might I suggest that the French system of the early 1830s simply omitted the last element of forming "tall-short-tall", and thus Scott's 1835 translation of this system ommitted the same. "

I'm assuming you read my initial posting so I must have not expressed myself very well. L'ORDONNANCE DU ROI 1831 omits ANY mention of how to form the company other than the general statement that the tallest file will be on the right and shortest file on the left. ( NOT "tall-short-tall") My question was about the fact that TACTICS 1835 has a school of the company which is more or less a word for word translation from the French SOC and yet Scott starts out with an insert that gives instructions on forming company via the French method, instructions that are not in the French manual he translated. The 1835 method is not part of the 1815/1825/1829 method and the one has nothing to do with the other. Twos stepping to the right behind ones to form temporary platoons versus "in two/three ranks form company, left face, march are completely different actions.

[Silas]

Re: question on forming the company - for the drillheads

Duffer, you're making my head spin - and I understand this stuff.