AoT Tactics, applied on the Battlefield

[sumter_guard]

Re: AoT Tactics, applied on the Battlefield

It is totally fascinating, and until now I didn't think about the difference between the fighting styles of the two armies. Now there is a dissertation! I have found another quote about a drill competition between two brigades and I want to say the Missouri Brigade was one of them. The competition was OVER as soon as the brigade, on the advance, halted and lay down in perfect order then rose to retake the advance. So this was a practiced maneuver. I will find the quote and post it when I find it. For now, take the specifics (save the actual maneuver) lightly.

Andrew

[CYoungJSU]

Re: AoT Tactics, applied on the Battlefield

Larry J. Daniel discusses this in his book "Soldiering in the Army of Tennessee." Daniel writes that a contest between three regiments in Breckinridge's division occured on March 23, 1863. The three regiments, one from each brigade participating were the Eighteenth Tennessee, Thirteenth and Twentieth Louisiana (consolidated) , and First Florida. The final phase of the competition was a bayonet drill. One soldier stated that the 18th Tennessee had a special surprise in store. The soldier wrote that as

they got half way across the field yelling as loud as they could when all at once the Drum rapped and they all dropped [as if to avoid a volley] like they were dead [;] Even the Col. and his horse went down. The horse lay as close [to] the ground as he could and the Col. right behind him. They all lay for several minutes before they got up. It beat everything I ever saw in my life...(24).

Upon further observation of the endnotes, it seems the quote may have been located in a letter from William D. Rogers to his parents on April 17, 1863, located at Stones River NBP.

CY

[sumter_guard]

Re: AoT Tactics, applied on the Battlefield

That was the quote I was looking for. I was reading through Daniel's book this weekend. Thanks for throwing that in. While the Colonel's horse surely added a dash of elan, I would think that this was more than just show. This thread has done a good job, so far, showing the regularity of laying down under fire and firing prone. I'm sure it was used quite a bit in those situations when the minies were flying so thick you could, "catch your hat full."

Andrew

[Daryl Black]

Re: AoT Tactics, applied on the Battlefield

From Diary of William Sylvester Dillon, Company E, Harris Guard 4th Tennessee; typescript in Mississippi State Archives

September 19, 1863 --"The right wing of this brigade [Strahl's] suffered heavily but we being on the left and it not coming into action our loss was very slight considering the length of time the fight continued. Our Brigade being held in reserve all day and none except the two regiments on the right got a fire of a single round at the enemy. Lt. Weber of Co. A was killed and Prvt Games of Co. G. I believe this was all of the killed of the regiment. The wounded will number about 35. Co. D had one man, Prvt. Mason Shelton wounded. Co. E had Corp. A. O. Turner slightly wounded by a cannon ball... This loss was very slight considering the heavy shelling we lay under all day. Our men fought under a great disadvantage all day -- some old dry fences had taken fire and the wind ble the smoke in the faces of our men completely blinding them and giving the enemy a greate advantage.; giving them a chance to take accurate aim whilst our boys were unable to get a view of their enemies. About one hour after dark fighting ceased and we rested on our arms on the field of battle.

Sunday Sept. 20 1863..... O. F. Strahl's Brigade were again held in reserve all day -- consequently not being in front our loss is again light -- ony a few wounded by shells as we were all day under a heavy range of cannon shot and shell. Today our loss is not so heavy as it was yesterday as all the dry wood and fences burned up during the night and this is a clear fine day, consequently our brave boys do not fight under so great a disadvantage as they did on yesterday..... the loss in the brigade will be about 250 men in the two days fight. This is about the average loss of the brigades of the division, notwithstanding the fact that they were engaged in front and us held in reserve -- this will give some idea of the heavy shelling that we lay under whilst acting in reserve."

If I remember correctly, based on an analysis of Cheatham's expenditure of ammuntion I did many years ago, Strahl's Brigade averaged 5 shots per man during the course of the battle.

Lee, isn't there an account of Walthall's men on Winfrey field advancing, lying down and then receiving the order to rise up to resume the advance in the CCNMP archives?

[Pat.Lewis]

Re: AoT Tactics, applied on the Battlefield

As promised re the East vs. West debate

"As a rule the Western men of Rosecrans' army were as plucky as the Southerners in the 'stand-up-and-fire' or the 'lie-down-and-shoot' fights that were so much in vogue in both Rosecrans' and Bragg's armies. Unaccustomed, though, to have their antagonists rush against their lines in the wild charges so common in Virginia, the Western men were...easily forced out of the way of the Texas Brigade."

Joseph B. Polley Co. F, 4th TX
Hood's Texas Brigade, 1910

I remember one similar line from one of Benning's boys in a history of that brigade who said that by lying and fighting at close range the Western Confederates were playing the to the Federals' strengths. That would speak to the soldiers being bad shots point a while back along with the fact that there are still a good number of smoothebores still in CS hands at Chickamagua.

[LWhite64]

Re: AoT Tactics, applied on the Battlefield

Captain J.H. Steinmeyer, Marion Rifles, 24th South Carolina Infantry, September 20th, "Our Brigade, under Col. Colquit, was rushed forward, without the opportun ity to reconnoiter, to the storm the strong position of the enemy-and struck a concealed angle of the works, that had been thrown up, hidden by the timbered locality. This we passed, until exposed to an enfilade fire-as well as from the front- of four batteries of artillery. The position behind their works was immediately held by King's regulars, supported by most of Baird's Division. The location as near as can be stated was about the Kelly House. There was necessarily some confusion resulting, first in the attempt to change front to storm the works that were discovered, to our left, and from which murderous fire was enfilading and evn reaching us from the rear, and then in consequence of the loss of nearly every field and staff officer. Colonels Colquit, Stevens, Capers, Maj. Jones, and Adjt. Palmer, had fallen in the charge through the thick woods. It was some time before the entire command could be withdrawn, the men, with indiscriminate company commanders holding their ground, lying down concealed best they could and keeping up an irregular fire. Reinforcements that came to us were forced to retire along with our remaining scattered command.

24th SC File CHCH.

Lee

[LWhite64]

Re: AoT Tactics, applied on the Battlefield

"Walthall's Brigade at Chickamauga" By Capt. J.D. Smith, Co.D, 24th Mississippi Infantry, CONFEDERATE VETERAN, Oct, 1904.

"Walthall assembled his regimental commanders and told them to withhold their fire until they reached the works, saying that the other two brigades had lost their advantage by stopping to fire. He ordered us to go at a double quick to a slight depression of ground between the enemies' line and ours, and there drop down and rest until he gave orders to charge. At his command we were to rise and rush, without firing, with all speed to the works. The scheme worked like a charm..."


Smith also wrote a report of the battle and said of the above, "Here we met the enemy's fire at a distance of not more than 50 yards, and were ordered to lie down, and did not suffer much from the fire. In a few minutes the order came down the line, 'Ride up, forward,' and immediately afterward we received the order to 'charge'. This we did, driving the enemy before us..."

24th Mississippi File, CHCH

Lee

[DougCooper]

Re: AoT Tactics, applied on the Battlefield

"Walthall's Brigade at Chickamauga" By Capt. J.D. Smith, Co.D, 24th Mississippi Infantry, CONFEDERATE VETERAN, Oct, 1904.

"Walthall assembled his regimental commanders and told them to withhold their fire until they reached the works, saying that the other two brigades had lost their advantage by stopping to fire. He ordered us to go at a double quick to a slight depression of ground between the enemies' line and ours, and there drop down and rest until he gave orders to charge. At his command we were to rise and rush, without firing, with all speed to the works. The scheme worked like a charm..."


Smith also wrote a report of the battle and said of the above, "Here we met the enemy's fire at a distance of not more than 50 yards, and were ordered to lie down, and did not suffer much from the fire. In a few minutes the order came down the line, 'Ride up, forward,' and immediately afterward we received the order to 'charge'. This we did, driving the enemy before us..."

24th Mississippi File, CHCH

Lee

Charging with loaded but uncapped weapons and not stopping to fire was the norm later in the war. The entire 2nd Corps did that at Spotsylvania - worked like a charm.

[sumter_guard]

Re: AoT Tactics, applied on the Battlefield

Mods please delete . . . duplicate post

[sumter_guard]

Re: AoT Tactics, applied on the Battlefield

"We were then ordered to the foot of a long ridge, heavily wooded. After remaining there lying down for some twenty minutes, the yankees charged our brigade, just as Barksdale's brigade of the Virginia Army charged on our right. I do not know the name of this old field we charged through in the morning, nor the name of the ridge where the yankees charged us at about 2 p.m. I hope this may be of some service to the history."

- A.M. Chandler 45th Miss. Inf. Talking about Chickamauga

[LWhite64]

Re: AoT Tactics, applied on the Battlefield

Found this while preparing for a tour today.

"General Bushrod Johnson's Division came up at the double quick; we were ordered to lie down, and they passed over us. We then formed on their right and fought there a while. When General Adams' Division came up and took our places, we moved rapdily and formed just to the right of Jay's Mill, and fought very hard until Longstreet's Virginians-they had bright looking uniforms- began to arrive and formed one hundred yards to our rear. General Pat Cleburne's Division came up at double quick and formed between us, just at night. We were exhausted and were ordered to lie down, when Cleburne's men passed over us with some terrific fighting for an hour or two..." Sgt. Newton Cannon, 11th TN Cav.

[LWhite64]

Re: AoT Tactics, applied on the Battlefield

Afternoon of September 20th, "About the middle of the afternoon we advanced again, but not so far as in the forenoon, and lay down under an infantry and artillery fire, while Semples Battery was pushed by hand helped by a detail from the 33rd Ala. who afterward also carried ammunition to the guns which played on the Federal breastworks at close range and infilading their line from the right." Preston Memoir, 33rd Alabama, Alabama Dept of Archives and History.

[Pat.Lewis]

Re: AoT Tactics, applied on the Battlefield

they had bright looking uniforms

Well, well. That is an interesting way to describe blue gray kersey. I would not have ever thought of the term "bright." I guess you look "brighter" when you've come to the battle wearing a new uniform and riding on a train versus when you've marched there from Middle Tennessee on dirt roads in the middle of a drought. There's that same East-West contrast that we see over and over again.

This is also something we need to think about for the Chickamauga LH next weekend. Our easterners should not only be wearing "new" or different clothes but should be a good deal cleaner in contrast the ragged, dirty, worn out jeans of the western fellows. Get dirty AoT'ers!