Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

[WestTN_reb]

Re: Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

I'll be the devil's advocate and ask the question that nobody else has asked. Are there even enough men under your command to warrant the rank you are assuming? The question is not directed at you personally, but at the hobby in general (this side of the hobby is better about it). Something to think on.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

Exactly my point...an exercise in futility...why are you not using a commutation pattern? It seems you are using an RD pattern to make a non-RD pattern jacket...And why make a copy of Otey's jacket based on an RD pattern when Otey's jacket isn't one???!!!

Why not? Sure some jackets are unique in their cut and construction, but a lot of them are simply variations on a theme (6 piece body and 2 piece sleeve). I've never seen the Otey jacket in person, but in simply viewing the pics, an RD pattern seems like a logical starting point. The biggest difference I see in patterns is the collar (the Otey jacket being a bit more square).

In reply to another post:
Yep, there are examples of piped and trimmed RD jackets. The J.B. Royal jacket in the MOC has red piping on the epaulets.

On topstitching:
I'm a backstitch fan, but have used a running stitch as well. It depends on the project. In looking at the Otey jacket in the "Echoes..." book, it is clear that it has some topstitching, but that's about all you can tell. It could honestly be just about any kind of stitch.

It can be tough to reproduce an item based on a picture(s). Even with some highly detailed shots, at some point you're going to have to make your best guess. At the end of the day, if you have a reasonable facsimile of an officer's jacket, none of your pards will think twice when they see you wear it at an event. No, it ain't an exact replica. This is the "sliding scale" of authenticity that Curt Schmidt talks about. If you like it and it meets the authenticity regs of the events you attend, then it works. Others seek the exacting replica and that works, too.

On "Commutation Jackets"
I just gotta say it... "Commutation" is the means by which uniforms were obtained, not the pattern for a particular type of garment. There were "Commutation" trousers, overshirts, frocks, and many other things. So when folks say, "You should use a commutation jacket pattern," what does that mean, exactly?

[Secesh]

Re: Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

In referring to the piping on Otey's jacket I am speaking of the red piping trim surrounding the pocket flaps, etc. ...His piping goes a little beyond what is considered the norm for RD jackets. By commutation pattern I am referring to something more along the lines of a common jacket or common purchase, not specifically a government issue pattern. Otey died in early 1862, at a time when the Richmond Depots were just being issued. Wambaugh & White offer a commutation pattern jacket that very much resembles the cut of the Otey jacket.

[rbruno]

Re: Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

Jason,
I will try to post some of the pictures. I am having a hard time finding the button to attach photos. Could use some help on that.

I agree that a commutation jacket will look like a RD, similar pieces and construction. I would think that if a person was going to have a coat made, the maker would make what they would know and I am sure many would know how to assemble a RD jacket. I had a debate with a friend in my unit over a similar jacket. He believed it was a RD jacket because it had 6 panels and 2 piece sleaves and linings. I disagreed because of all of the other details in the jacket ie. padded chest, etc. I still think this was a private purhase jacket, but basically a RD pattern because that is what tailors new.
Rob Bruno
1st MD Cav

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

Tom,

I have no specific knowledge of the Otey jacket. However, I think that your argument that the Otey jacket is likely not a reworked version of an issue jacket makes sense. "Never say never," but if he died in early '62, I think you have a point.

In any case, I think all the red trim on that jacket was probably added at the same time, whether when the jacket was originally made, or if it was modified later. My comment on trimmed RD jackets was simply to illustrate that your earlier comment was a bit of an over-generalization. Generally, you are correct, but it is not an absolute truth. ...what is "absolute" when it comes to CS garments?!? ;)

With regard to using an RD pattern...
If a guy has experience and a comfort level with CRC patterns, and wants to construct a jacket with a 6 piece body, then the RD pattern is not a bad choice. I would not advocate making a "RD jacket with red trim and a pocket on the front" and try to pass it off as a "replica" of the Otey jacket. Rather, I was saying that the RD pattern from CRC could be used as the starting point for a reproduction. Modification to collar, sleeves, facings, even the shap of the front might be necessary. However, these are minor modifications when compared to the prospect of working with a pattern from other vendors, with whom one might not have experience.

Thanks!

[vamick]

Re: Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

Just as an aside, I have a book containing letters/dairys ect, with an entry describing privates of McGregor's battery/Stuart horse artillery wearing red piped shell jackets as late as Five Forks, ( it mentions they were piped, not just red collars as in Tait's) Ive also seen several different "RD IIs" some with epulets and belts loops, some with just epulets, some with epulets trimed with red piping ( private Blair Royal Richmond Howitzers EOG)
some with only collars some with none/ 9 buttons/8 buttons...when we say something never happened, or even that it wasnt PEC. sometimes new evidence comes to light!...I like to be careful with 'never' its a dangerous word ;)

[toccoa42]

Re: Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

Why not? Sure some jackets are unique in their cut and construction, but a lot of them are simply variations on a theme (6 piece body and 2 piece sleeve). I've never seen the Otey jacket in person, but in simply viewing the pics, an RD pattern seems like a logical starting point. The biggest difference I see in patterns is the collar (the Otey jacket being a bit more square).

In reply to another post:
Yep, there are examples of piped and trimmed RD jackets. The J.B. Royal jacket in the MOC has red piping on the epaulets.

On topstitching:
I'm a backstitch fan, but have used a running stitch as well. It depends on the project. In looking at the Otey jacket in the "Echoes..." book, it is clear that it has some topstitching, but that's about all you can tell. It could honestly be just about any kind of stitch.

It can be tough to reproduce an item based on a picture(s). Even with some highly detailed shots, at some point you're going to have to make your best guess. At the end of the day, if you have a reasonable facsimile of an officer's jacket, none of your pards will think twice when they see you wear it at an event. No, it ain't an exact replica. This is the "sliding scale" of authenticity that Curt Schmidt talks about. If you like it and it meets the authenticity regs of the events you attend, then it works. Others seek the exacting replica and that works, too.

On "Commutation Jackets"
I just gotta say it... "Commutation" is the means by which uniforms were obtained, not the pattern for a particular type of garment. There were "Commutation" trousers, overshirts, frocks, and many other things. So when folks say, "You should use a commutation jacket pattern," what does that mean, exactly?

Thank you. This covers all the intentions of my project exactly. I'm not recreating Otey's jacket, I'm creating MY jacket.

And as far as how many men are under my command -- none. And I don't care.

Lynn Kessler

[toccoa42]

Re: Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

With regard to using an RD pattern...
If a guy has experience and a comfort level with CRC patterns, and wants to construct a jacket with a 6 piece body, then the RD pattern is not a bad choice. I would not advocate making a "RD jacket with red trim and a pocket on the front" and try to pass it off as a "replica" of the Otey jacket. Rather, I was saying that the RD pattern from CRC could be used as the starting point for a reproduction. Modification to collar, sleeves, facings, even the shap of the front might be necessary. However, these are minor modifications when compared to the prospect of working with a pattern from other vendors, with whom one might not have experience.

Sorry folks, I seem to have gotten up on the wrong side of the website this morning . . .

Mr. Wickett points my intentions out quite well again. The RD pattern is a starting point, and I'm not recreating Otey's jacket, I creating a jacket that might have fallen into the possibilities of the rank and design. No, there will not be a chest pocket and yes, there will be red trim. What I am doing may not suit the purist campaigner's intentions, but it suits MY intentions, which are not mainstream, but also not purist campaigner's, either. I could simply buy a jacket off the racks of a sutler and call it a day, but I'm not willing to do that. I want a jacket that is correct in design, cut and construction (CRC does that) that I can build as was built during the war, but with the embellishments that I might have had added, as an officer, who procured his jacket from the Richmond Depot, but had a tailor add the requested embellisahments. Not outside the realm of possibility, as I see it.

Apologies if I ruffled anyones feathers, but it's just too damned early in the moring for me . . .

Lynn Kessler

[Secesh]

Re: Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

Well, for the record, I pulled out my MOC Catalogue of Uniforms, in which Capt. Gaston Otey's jacket is described (for those who are now curious about this jacket)......
Cadet gray wool with off-white osnaburg lining, red wool facing on collar with gold braid captains bars, red wool worsted piping, 2 slit pockets with flaps trimmed in red wool worsted piping, red wool worsted captains sleeve braid, 8 button front with Block A locally cast brass buttons...Otey was wounded in May 62 near Lewisburg, West Virginia and died of his wounds several months later. Best regards, and good luck on your jacket.

[toccoa42]

Re: Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

Well, for the record, I pulled out my MOC Catalogue of Uniforms, in which Capt. Gaston Otey's jacket is described (for those who are now curious about this jacket)......
Cadet gray wool with off-white osnaburg lining, red wool facing on collar with gold braid captains bars, red wool worsted piping, 2 slit pockets with flaps trimmed in red wool worsted piping, red wool worsted captains sleeve braid, 8 button front with Block A locally cast brass buttons...Otey was wounded in May 62 near Lewisburg, West Virginia and died of his wounds several months later. Best regards, and good luck on your jacket.

Yeah, that is interesting. Thank you. Any info on anyone from Lowry's Battery, Wise Legion, ANV, by chance? Do you need specific names? Or does your info apply only to the pieces within the MOC collection?

Lynn Kessler

[Secesh]

Re: Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

I am only familiar with Otey from that unit, mainly thru researching his uniform and having seen the original, plus his personal items, at the Museum of the Confederacy. In addition to his jacket and kepi, they also have his doeskin gauntlets in which he, on the back of the hands, drew scenes of artillerymen firing their pieces. As I recall, Otey was a very small man, based upon the size of his jacket. Best regards, Tom

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

Nevermind... Couldn't get a file to load. Sorry!

[rbruno]

Re: Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

Jason,
I wanted to try and post some of the pictures you asked about before. I think I can do it now. The first picture of the sleeve is an example of what I would call the prick stitch from the earlier post. You can only see a very small stitch on the outside of the coat. The larger stitch is on the inside of the hem. The second picture, the topstitching around the collar is very close together almost touching and you can barely see anything in the back of the collar. It is pretty much the reverse of the sleeve. These were both officer coats and very well tailored.
Rob Bruno
1st MD Cav

[Bill]

Re: Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

Gentlemen,

Excuse me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Richmond Clothing Bureau selling unfinished kits and/or yard goods to officers? In that case wouldn't it make perfect sense that an officer's jacket would look very much like the basic RD II jacket, but made better and with certain custom touches? Just asking.

[roundshot]

Re: Topstitching -- Which is correct / common?

Lynn: If you are interested in Lowry's Btty, then you may find the attached relic of interest: http://www.historybroker.com/items/belt.htm
While the antique dealer believes the alteration of the "NY" was done by it's Confederate owner, I personally believe it was a crude attempt to make a "NJ" New Jersey plate by its Union owner. It bears a pretty uncanny resemblance to several post-war NJ plates, but that's only a SWAG on my part.

I find the history of the Wise Legion Artillery quite interesting as well. I would venture that a good bit of their mid-war clothing came from the Wytheville depot.