Would Horse Artillery Carry Carbines

[Jeffrey Cohen]

The question of arms has come up in the unit. We portray a federal horse artillery unit and I have plenty of documentation that the men carried sabers and pistols. The question of long arms has come up. Does anyone one know if carbines were used by members of the horse artillery in support or defense of the guns? For example would men on the ammo train have them? Possibly some cannoneers themselves? I do know that sabers were left on the saddles.
Thanks
Jeffrey Cohen

[Tom Ezell]

Re: Would Horse Artillery Carry Carbines

The question of arms has come up in the unit. We portray a federal horse artillery unit and I have plenty of documentation that the men carried sabers and pistols. The question of long arms has come up. Does anyone one know if carbines were used by members of the horse artillery in support or defense of the guns? For example would men on the ammo train have them? Possibly some cannoneers themselves? I do know that sabers were left on the saddles.
Thanks
Jeffrey Cohen

No.

Jeff, you've been with the artillery long enough to have learned that the regleg's weapon is the cannon. Pistols were issued to some of the drivers in case they migh have to dispatch mortally wounded horses, and sabers for the usual camp guard duties.

Tom

[Jeffrey Cohen]

Re: Would Horse Artillery Carry Carbines

The unit I portray turned in 90 Colt Navys in .36 cal. after being overrun at Brandy Station for Colt Armys in .44.
In the light artillery only NCO and above carried sidearms, this I know. The men walked along side the gun during the march. However horse artillery is a different question, as they all carried sabers and pistols and everybody rode.
Personally I don't think they carried carbines, I just want to make sure and surely there's no harm in that.
Thanks
Jeffrey Cohen

[CJSchumacher]

Re: Would Horse Artillery Carry Carbines

The unit I portray turned in 90 Colt Navys in .36 cal. after being overrun at Brandy Station for Colt Armys in .44.
In the light artillery only NCO and above carried sidearms, this I know. The men walked along side the gun during the march. However horse artillery is a different question, as they all carried sabers and pistols and everybody rode.
Personally I don't think they carried carbines, I just want to make sure and surely there's no harm in that.
Thanks
Jeffrey Cohen

I believe the best way to approach it would be to ask if it were PEC? May someone have had a carbine at some point...sure. Was it regulation or a majority occurance...no, for reasons already stated.

A carbine is still considered a long arm and therefore, subject by definition to use at some distance. A cannoneer's long arm is his gun. I just don't think it would be PEC otherwise.

[1stMaine]

Re: Would Horse Artillery Carry Carbines

Comrade Cohen,
In answer to your question, I would refer you to General Hunt's directive when he assumed command of the Artillery of the AOP where he disarmed most of the batteries of small arms. His rationale was that the battery's main weapon was the guns, and the gunners should therefor defend themselves with them. If support was required, then the brigade to which the battery was attached should provide infantry to support the guns.
It is possible that 1 0r 2 carbines and/or rifles MAY be found in a battery, to support foraging parties etc, but by and large, in the AOP at least, all small arms save for Horse Artillery pistols and sabres were removed.
respects,

[Linneus Ahearn]

Re: Would Horse Artillery Carry Carbines

...However horse artillery is a different question, as they all carried sabers and pistols and everybody rode...

Jeff, I think you answered your own question here. Flying artillery was created to ride with cavalry, that's why they all rode. Cavalry would (or were supposed to) support the artillery assigned to them so it could work effectively. The gun crew were to man the piece while the horses they rode were held by horse holders. No time or manpower to place additional protection for the gun in the form of carbineers, they had to trust the cavalry for protection.

[Johan Steele]

Re: Would Horse Artillery Carry Carbines

I can't say that I've ever seen an ordinance return for an Arty unit that included any rifle or carbine ammunition. However, I have seen several photos of Heavy Arty detachments w/ rifles in the forts around Washington DC. This is of coarse Heavy Arty manning forts. As to Horse Arty having Carbines, I could see a few for foraging but the guns were the primary weapon. Light Arty didn't do pickett duty so that argument is moot before asked.

[Ringgold]

Re: Would Horse Artillery Carry Carbines

In the light artillery only NCO and above carried sidearms, this I know. The men walked along side the gun during the march. However horse artillery is a different question, as they all carried sabers and pistols and everybody rode.

Jeff,

I have examined hundreds of artillery documents at the NARA, and I have never come across any light artillery unit (horse or otherwise) that was issued carbines if they were in the field. A few of the light companies that were posted in forts, such as Nevin's Independent Battey I, PVA, did manage to receive all sorts of unusual weapons such as carbines and repeating rifles.

On a related note, I have observed that many horse artillerists did not carry sabres based on the number of sabres issued to numerous companies compared to the number of men those batteries.

Another exception is the issuance of pistols. I have come across numerous buglers, guidon bearers, and even artificers who sported various types of revolvers. These were the exceptions, however, and not the rule.

I hope this helps.

[1stMaine]

Re: Would Horse Artillery Carry Carbines

Comrade Mark,
It was always my understanding that the pistols issued to artillery units were primarily for shooting wounded animals. Then again, that might be just another of the "details" that get permutated through time and generations.......
If I was assigned to an artillery battery, I'd jump at the opportunity to rid myself of a musket and accoutrements. Anytime I can drop 20 pounds of gear is a good time. It makes marching a whole lot easier if all you have to carry is your knapsack, haversack and canteen:)
Respects,

[Jefferson Guards]

Re: Would Horse Artillery Carry Carbines

In the Summer 1997 issue of "The Artilleryman" (Vol. 18, No. 3) There is printed a "Return of ordnance and ordnance stores recieved, expended, and remaining on hand during the first quarter 1863" for the 4th Mass. Battery. "On hand to be accounted for" they list among other things: 42 sabers and saber belts & plates, 1 sharps carbine, 1 carbine sling, 1 cartridge box & belt, 7 colts revolver, 7 pistol holsters, 100 cartridge ball cal 52, 3 guidons, 2 NCO Sashes, and 2 Trumpets. These were in addition to your typical artillery equipment.