Sweaters???

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

I have heard and read about sweaters existing during and even before the civil war. I was curious if anyone had more information and possibly even examples/pictures of some.

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

[Masked Battery]

Re: Sweaters???

I think John Stillwagon posted a pic of two (AL?) Rebs in sweaters on here a while back. Might he do it again...who knows?

[Johan Steele]

Re: Sweaters???

Cardigans were the height of fashion for a while after the Crimea War and were not at all uncommon, though I don't know exactly what pattern would be correct for a CW soldier. What I've seen pf sweaters as we imagine them today seemed to be more of a childrens item. Though I admit I'm a long way from knowledgeable on the subject.

Elizibeth Clark might well be the best reference on the subject.

[KarinTimour]

Re: Sweaters???

As with most things, it probably depends on your definition of sweater, your documentation and your impression. I've seen one picture of a guy wearing a knit pullover (the one that was sold on Ebay about three years ago with the wild vertical zigzags that looked like they were 9 inches long and in some eyepopping colors).

I've seen the arrest picture of the Lincoln assasination co-conspirator who looked like he had a heavy cardigan on with his handcuffs (but it might have been some sort of knit sack coat).

There are surprisingly few mentions of anything closely resembling a sweater even for women in our time period -- knitted spencers, which were short waistlength jackets, and knitted zouave jackets come to mind, but sweaters outside of that, for native born women were largely a post-war item.

Certainly if you were from an Irish, Scottish, English, or Dutch coastal village and there were fishermen in your family, there would have been sweaters, as their sweater documentation extends much earlier than the 1860s. Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, Finns, Germans and Austrians all have at least some sweaters among their folk colothing, some of which even has the date knitted right into the sweater itself. There are probably additional sweater traditions that I've not discovered yet, and if others have research on this, I'd be extremely interested to read it.

But you also have to ask yourself when you came to this country, who knit it for you, and how much you wanted to blend in with everyone else in your unit? Unless they are knit of very fine wool, a sweater is also going to be a bulky and heavy thing to have to carry if you're on the march and it's too warm to wear it. If it fit with your impression, it might be an ideal thing to have at a winter camp or garrison event, however.

Hope that's helpful,
Karin Timour
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Sweaters???

"I've seen the arrest picture of the Lincoln assasination co-conspirator who looked like he had a heavy cardigan on with his handcuffs (but it might have been some sort of knit sack coat)."

Karin

If it is the photo that I am thinking of, the conspirator is wearing a boatneck jersey, which was particularly popular with sailors.

To back up what Karin said, sweaters and knit caps have been found in Scandinavian grave sites going back to the 8th century. In particular intrest is Boksten´s man, a nearly perfectly preserved man and his suit of cloths dating from the 13th century. He he was found in the bog were he was dumped after he was murdered, and can be seen in Varbergs Länsmuseet in Varberg Sweden.

[Matthew.Rector]

Re: Sweaters???

I may be wrong on this. I have always thought that the woman in this photograph was wearing a sweater, or what appeared to be a sweater. Maybe she is wearing something else?
I'll attach the detail.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/I?cwp:1:./temp/~pp_a04i::displayType=1:m856sd=cph:m856sf=3g07983:@@@cw

Civil War Photograph Collection (Library of Congress).
Camp of 31st Pennsylvania Infantry near Washington, D.C.

REPRODUCTION NUMBER: LC-USZC4-7983 (color film copy transparency)
LC-B8171-2405 (b&w film copy neg.)
SUMMARY: Woman with sleeves rolled up holding basket, posed in front of tent with a soldier (possibly her husband) and three children, other soldiers in the background.
MEDIUM: 1 photographic print : albumen.
CREATED/PUBLISHED: [photographed 1862, printed later]

[markj]

Re: Sweaters???

Greetings,

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the garment found on one of the exhumed men of the ill-fated Franklin Expedition (1845-1848). About 20 years ago, a joint Canadian-American archaeological/forensic team excavated the graves of three men who died at Beechey Island, N.W.T. in early 1846. One of them, Seaman John Hartnell, was wearing a sweater-like pullover as well as shirts and a watch cap. Here's a rather gruesome photo of Hartnell still in his coffin (the top of his pullover can be seen):

http://www.arcticwebsite.com/Hartnell_Imge.html

Additional links about the Franklin Expedition can be found here:

http://www.ric.edu/rpotter/SJFranklin.html

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Sweaters???

In short, did sweaters exsist in the 1860s? Absolutley.

Are they PEC for military impressions? That is up to discussion.

[vbetts]

Sweaters on the Bertrand

I have just finished reading Lore Ann Guilmartin's Texas A&M University dissertation "Textiles from the Steamboat Bertrand: Clothing and Gender on the Montana Mining Frontier" (2002). The Bertrand, as you may recall, sank in the Missouri River on April 1, 1865, as it was heading upstream to the mining camps of Montana, and the wreck was excavated in 1968 and much of it is on display near Council Bluffs. Aboard were at least 45 men's sweaters.

"Twenty-three black, wool, machine knit, ribbed sweaters were among the sampled artifacts. All were cargo items. These sweaters were probably fully-fashioned, shaped while the pieces were on the knitting machine. This assumption is based on the absence of any apparent unraveling along the edges of the sweater in collection photographs, as the sweaters were among the artifacts I was unable to examine directly due to conservation restrictions. The bottom hem seems particularly solid. Fashioning marks may be visible at the hips and armscye in the photograph, but the quality of reproduction is such that it is not absolutely certain. It is also very likely that it would have been necessary to produce fully-fashioned knitwear before the development of industrial serging machines.

The sweaters appear to be close fitting, with narrow shoulders and waists, and a slight flare at the hips. They close at the front with a straight 4-button, single-breasted closure which fastens very high at the neck. Knit self-fabric facings reinforce the closure. The one-piece sleeves are narrow, tapering toward the cuffs.

A wide rectangular, fold-over collar stands rather high at the neck. There are 2 slit pockets at waist level. The sweaters fastened with black buttons made of lacquered paper. Conservators observed a bright blue residue, possibly indigo, along the edges of the front, collar, pockets, and cuffs, which disappeared during washing and conservation. This is likely what remained of a degraded decorative trim.

All of the sweaters are identical, including the now-absent blue trim, leading to the strong probability of their belonging to the same shipment. Although field information is absent for #2813, the 6 sweaters from #2814 were being shipped to Vivian and Simpson in Virginia City.

The cardigan was originally a short military jacket or dolman of knit worsted designed and worn by the Earl of Cardigan, a British general during the Crimean War. The term quickly came to identify a sweater with or without sleeves which buttoned at the center front. That form was designed to be worn under coats and vests, but was worn by some working men as a form of casual outerwear. This can be seen in an 1877 photograph of a British locksmith. The locksmith's sweater differs from those found on the Bertrand in that it is collarless. But the color, ribbing and relatively high closure around the neck are similar. Sweaters were also commonly worn by fishermen and other seafarers throughout the 19th century.

Sweaters did not appear in fashion plates or photographs until the 1880s and 1890s, when they became popular sportswear for adults. They were supposedly popular garments for boys during the 1860s and 1870s. As the Bertrand sweaters are clearly sized for adult men, it is likely that they were to be worn as practical, protective garments outside the range of popular fashion."

This of course does not address the issue of soldiers wearing sweaters, but I thought it was interesting as background.

Vicki Betts
vbetts@gower.net

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Sweaters???

I really apreciate the response I have gotten to this post. I intend to avoid the discussion of whether soldiers wore sweaters or not unless anyone has documentation of soldiers being issued. However, keeping in mind that the Shenandoah Valley gets bone chilling cold, I have to believe that if my anscestors could have gotten their hands on a sweater then they would most certainly have worn it.

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Sweaters???

I really apreciate the response I have gotten to this post. I intend to avoid the discussion of whether soldiers wore sweaters or not unless anyone has documentation of soldiers being issued. However, keeping in mind that the Shenandoah Valley gets bone chilling cold, I have to believe that if my anscestors could have gotten their hands on a sweater then they would most certainly have worn it.

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

Paul

Be carefull of "if they could haves they would haves". It is important to look to the "did theys", and backing that up with strong factual evidence. Think of it this way, many of our soldiers in Iraq would love to have aircondition. Does AC exist? Yes. Do the men in the field want ac? Yes. Do they have ac? No.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Sweaters???

Now I think that's taking it out of context. I wasn't saying if sweaters existed. I said if they could get their hands on one. There is a big difference in wording. And do you think that generals in the field don't have air-condition? and I know for a fact that the hospital tents have it.


Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

Paul

Be carefull of "if they could haves they would haves". It is important to look to the "did theys", and backing that up with strong factual evidence. Think of it this way, many of our soldiers in Iraq would love to have aircondition. Does AC exist? Yes. Do the men in the field want ac? Yes. Do they have ac? No.

[markj]

Re: Sweaters???

Hi,

Oh mercy, this thread has just jogged my memory. I do believe, in fact, I've seen a published letter by a soldier (Northern) requesting a sweater from home. I think the missive dates from around 1862-1863 but I'll have to go back and track it down. If I ever do find it, I'll post it on the forum.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Sweaters???

"I have to believe that if my anscestors could have gotten their hands on a sweater then they would most certainly have worn it."

How can I read this any other way than "if would have had it they would have used it."? Im sorry if I missunderstood.

I do not think that Generals and Hospitals are the common soldier in the field. I am sorry if I was not clear.

To clarify, I think the goal here is to establish if these garments were the norm for soldiers in the field, and if so how and when they were used and by who.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Sweaters???

Exactly, I don't believe that sweaters would be the norm. But the fact that none of us now wear them at events to represent this...I thought it would be something interesting to look into. Afterall majority of pictures don't show the use of sweaters. Sorry if I misunderstood what you were tyring to say. I am interested in wearing a sweater to events if period. However I would hate to see it become the norm/standard equipment like so many other "period" items....

Paul B. Boulden Jr.