Sweaters???

[markj]

Re: Sweaters???

Greetings,

This subject, like so many others, is vexing. However, I would submit that some troops did wear sweater-type garments based on the following:

1. When or if these were available either commercially or from home.

2. Soldiers got just as cold (or colder) as everyone else.

3. Soldiers, as a rule, weren't idiots and didn't want to freeze any more than their citizen counterparts.

Some other items of interest: There is an illustrated 1862 pattern in "Godey's Lady's Book" for a gentleman's "neck warmer." It is identical to a modern "dickey" and anyone handy at knitting could have easily made this item. I have copied this item and can provide it on request.

In lieu of a sweater or "dickey," why not just wear two or three shirts plus a period-style undershirt? This was common practice. Just the other day, I noted a published coroner's inquest in an Indiana newspaper describing a soldier found drowned in the Ohio River in, as I recall, late 1862: He was reportedly wearing at least two shirts plus an undershirt. The Franklin Expedition men whose bodies were exhumed (see my previous posts) were also found to be wearing multiple shirts.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Sweaters???

Mark,

Please send me that pic from Godies.

paulboulden@hotmail.com

Thanks,

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

Greetings,

This subject, like so many others, is vexing. However, I would submit that some troops did wear sweater-type garments based on the following:

1. When or if these were available either commercially or from home.

2. Soldiers got just as cold (or colder) as everyone else.

3. Soldiers, as a rule, weren't idiots and didn't want to freeze any more than their citizen counterparts.

Some other items of interest: There is an illustrated 1862 pattern in "Godey's Lady's Book" for a gentleman's "neck warmer." It is identical to a modern "dickey" and anyone handy at knitting could have easily made this item. I have copied this item and can provide it on request.

In lieu of a sweater or "dickey," why not just wear two or three shirts plus a period-style undershirt? This was common practice. Just the other day, I noted a published coroner's inquest in an Indiana newspaper describing a soldier found drowned in the Ohio River in, as I recall, late 1862: He was reportedly wearing at least two shirts plus an undershirt. The Franklin Expedition men whose bodies were exhumed (see my previous posts) were also found to be wearing multiple shirts.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[KarinTimour]

Re: Sweaters???

Folks:

It just goes to show that in this hobby when you say "always" or "never" for sure someone is going to have documentation to the contrary in a heartbeat.

Mr. Rector:
I had forgotten about the laundress with the family and the tub. I agree it does look very much as though she's wearing a sweater -- and judging by her headcovering, she's a knitter for sure. It's a pretty plain garment, and it looks like a pullover with the arms stuffed up inside the sweater arms, as opposed to being rolled over, which is an interesting feature. Thank you very much for pointing it out.

Mr. Jaeger:
I clicked on the picture of the gentleman who froze to death and he is haunting me still. With my monitor, and the size of the image, I could get very little sense of the garments he was wearing at all. I chickened out for the time being on checking out any of the other links, will look at them tomorrow.

Very interesting reference to the guy who wrote home for the sweater -- when you find that letter, it would be very interesting to see if he calls it a "sweater" as opposed to a pullover or something simliar.

Mr. Boulden:
I also agree with Mark Jaeger that a very period response to colder weather is to double up on shirts and/or to wear a couple of regular shirts with an undershirt. Right before the last crash on this site, there was a discussion of this on the civilian clothing board, and when we get that data back I urge people to go look at it. In a nutshell, when I was in Pittsburgh last December, during a visit to the Historical Society, I came across a whole CDV album of ordinary workingmen from a particular foundry taken in the early 1860s -- I think '62. Many if not most of them were wearing at least two shirts, one over the other, often with a knit undershirt.

Miss Vicki:
Terrific information, thank you so much for the reference to the Bertram, it was the first I'd heard that they had knitwear on board, and has moved it much further up my list of places I've got to get to visit in the near future.

Mr. Steele:
"Cardigan," Lord Cardigan and the Crimean War:
In "The History of Hand Knitting" by Richard Rutt, there are doubts cast on the issue of cardigans being worn by the Earl of Cardigan during the war. The following excerpt is from page 135:

"'Cardigan' meaning an informal woolen jacket is derived from the title of the Earl of Cardigan (1797 - 1868) who led the charge of the Light Brigade at Balaclava. There is no evidence that he wore such a garment during the three short months he spnt in the Crimea, from 12 September to 8 December 1854. The autumn weather was oppressively hot by day when he arrived, increasingly chilly by night, and as winter approached the earl lived on his yacht 'Dryad,' moored in Balaclava harbour, going ashore for battles and other daytime activities.

A 'cardigan body warmer' might have suited his needs, but if he had one in the Crimea, nobody recorded it. The word first occurs in print in 1868, the year of his death. It is more likely that he used the garment during his last years at Deene Park, Northhamptonshire. English country houses were notoriously cold."

Thoughts on terminology
I've not seen period references to the terms "sweater," "pullover," or "cardigan." I have seen references to items which we would clearly call pullover sweaters (pulls over the head, no buttons or only a few near the neck) which are called "guernseys," "jerseys," "ganseys," and "knit frocks." These are all English terms, and it seems that jersey or guernsey was accepted as a synonym for "knitted" -- hence "jersey shirt" was a knitted shirt.

Interestingly, according to Mary Wright in "Cornish Guernsey and Knit-frocks" in the area of Polperro, Cornwall there is a regional distinction made between a guernsey/gansey and a jersey, the latter being made of finer weight wool and a different color. The more common term used in that area for reference to a knitted oversweater is a "knitted frock" or "worsted frock" as opposed to a garment that is sewn. Sometimes the locals would refer to a "frock-shirt" meaning a knitted garment worn over or instead of a shirt.
The term "frocks" or "froxs" has also been used in Yorkshire to refer to knitted overshirt garments, accordingly to Marie Hartley and Joan Ingleby in their "Old Hand-Knitters of the Dales."

Ordinary working men and sweaters
According to Richard Rutt (a venerable historians of knitwear), there are quite a few references to, and pictures of, working people, especially fishermen, wearing ganseys or jerseys, which we would know as pullover fisherman's sweaters. Again, Rutt is talking about English, Irish and Scottish working people, not Americans, but, as has been demonstrated by both Mark Jaeger and Miss Vicki Betts, there are at least two locations where Americans were using sweaters -- the Franklin Expedition and the suppliers who stocked the Bertram.

I've also got quite a bit of commercial corrspondence about English and Cornish hand knit production of pullover sweaters in our time period -- 1840s - 1870s, where suppliers are talking about having 480 dozen ganseys or knit frocks on hand ready to ship if their price is met.

Bob Johnson/Mr. Boulden:
How many sweaters should we have at events?
This is the crux of the issue, at one level -- how common were sweaters, how many would have been with the soldiers, what did they look like and can I take one to the next event? As we are evolving event guidelines, I was thinking that perhaps coordinators could set limits for how many sweaters can be taken to the event -- or perhaps if you've got a sweater you want to take, you should contact the event coordinator ahead of time and clear it with them? Some will see this as either opening the door to let in a flood of jaguar skin pants, gaiters and etc. while others will be revolted at even allowing someone else to tell you what you can or can't bring to an event.

I guess I'd like to err on the side of caution. I don't feel that I know enough to be able to say who would and wouldn't have had a sweater. Wish I could be more definative, and I'm very interested if someone has more definative documentation, pictures, etc.

Mr. Boulden, I want to especially thank you for asking this question on this forum. So often I hear "Well, that's a civilian item, so we don't know what it would look like, anything is ok." If you've been doing research solely on military items you're used to having a certain amount of standard reference stuff for what was issued to the troops -- quartermaster documentation, supply depot specs, etc. And even with that there are certainly a lot of questions we still would like to know about the variations within the items that were issued.

When it comes to things that your family sent you, there is no question that we have less information concentrated in an easily referenced single source. BUT that does not mean that we know nothing at all. We have suriving commercial documenation, like the Godey's item, or references in personal letters or diaries, or even pictures of contemporaneous events, such as the three pieces of documentation that Mr. Jaeger shared above. There are also surviving originals (like Miss Vicki's mention of the Bertram sweaters), and sometimes even newspaper references, as Miss Vicki has shared on more than one occassion.

You don't have to go out and spend hours researching every civilian item in your impression -- but know that there are quite a few people on this forum who have information about civilian items like shirts, housewives, pipes, etc. who can steer you to some good reference materials or give you pointers about things that would make an item obviously out of bounds or a good choice.

Some of the questions I'd want to know about a sweater before okaying it for an event:

1. What color is it? The ones from the Bertram were black, it looked like the one from the Franklin was blue. Would someone ship a white or cream colored sweater to a soldier, knowing that it's not going to see hard wear and not be washed for months?

2. How is it shaped? Pullover? V-neck? Round neck? Cardigan (buttons up the front)? Turtleneck?

3. I'd also go with fairly plain knitting, unless you've got pictures or other documentation that sweaters with wild colors or fancy cables would have been something the impression being portrayed would have worn, and I'd be more likely to Ok it if it's an ethnic regiment or an ethnic impression that you're portraying. At the same time, I'd be among the first to say that the Victorians were wild for colors, and there is a great list that Virginia Mescher has compiled on the Szabo civilian board of some eyepopping color combinations seen in women's dresses. While gentlemen's clothing tended to be more sober colors, knitted things and vests were areas where some men let their color sense go riotous. Just as there are some guys today who love a zippy tie that leaps out at you, there are a lot of people who have ties in only two colors, both sober. I'd say when in doubt, go for a darker color -- black, gray, navy blue, brown.

4. Important note on Irish impressions -- please keep in mind that in our period the Irish were facing rampant discrimination. Unless you are portraying a completely Irish unit, or a majority Irish unit, I question whether you'd want to advertise through a highly identifiable ethnic sweater that you were Irish or Irish-American.

Your milage may vary and in this very thread we may get some additional information that will change my suggested questions above.

Hope that's helpful,
Karin Timour
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[vbetts]

Other knitwear on the Bertrand

Karin--

Other knitwear on the Bertrand (don't blame me for the terminology Guilmartin uses! ;-) )
"Several different hats, caps, and snoods were found among the Bertrand artifacts. Twenty-four were included among the sample.
A knitted wool cap was found in Mrs. Atchison's baggage (Catalog #63, Figure 17). It was hand-knit of reddish brown and black yarn, in concentric stripes. It is currently oval shaped, with looped yarn pile decorating the edge. Two tasseled cords found with the cap are no longer attached.
Fifteen women's hats were recovered from the Bertrand cargo, all were sampled (Catalog #2848, 2849, 2850). All were made of maroon colored wool. Eleven wre loosely woven, 4 were loosely knit. They are oval shaped, with a shallow crown and narrow brim. The brims were stiffened by wire which has since rusted away. The hats are approximately 10 1/2 inches wide....The 4 knitted caps (Catalog #2850, Figure 19), are loosely knit, in an oval shape comparable to the Atchison cap. A looped pile of black yarn decorates one long edge of each hat. All of the hats were being shipped to G. P. Dorris of Virginia City from Thomas Larkin. Labeling indicates that they were made by or purchased from Angell and Company, of New York....It is probable that these hats were very inexpensive imitations of high-fashion women's millinery of the time....Eight snoods were among the sampled artifacts (Catalog #2875 and 3114, Figure 21). These were made of waffle weave wool in a black and tan check. (Won't continue with description because these were woven--can't see them being "snoods" though.)....Undersleeves had been worn throughout the early and middle 19th century. One was recovered from the Campbell baggage (Catalog #2915, Figure 23). Unlike the fine linen or cotton batiste examples which survive in many costume collection, this undersleeve was knitted from medium weight brown wool. The knit is loose at the top, tightening into a ribbed cuff around the wrist, with a loose ruffle at the lower edge. The entire undersleeve is 7 inches long. It would have been worn fastened into a looser dress sleeve to cover the wrist and insulate the arm. Plassmann notes in her autobiography that she knit comparable cuffs, "...the bright colored wristlets found comfortable on cold days--this last work not interfering with my reading."...Twenty-nine socks, all cargo items, were among the sampled artifacts (Catalog #2842, 2961, 2964, 3100). They were knit from wool in shades of brown and black. They were possibly hand knit, judging from the irregularity of the stitches and the means of tying off of yarns. The toes and heels of some socks were knit of other fibers that did not survive, perhaps cotton for comfort. The size range illustrated in a photograph of set #2842 certainly shows at least one pair of children's socks and one pair of adult men's socks, but another pair appears to be of an intermediate size. They may have been intended for larger boys, smaller men, or women. All of the socks are crew-length, falling below the calf. The 23 socks of #2842 were labeled "M. P. Bell & [DRY] Goods."...Two mufflers were sampled from the cargo items (Catalog #2980). They were made of a waffle weave wool in a black, gray and tan check. Each is a rectangle 70 inches long and 10 inches wide, with fringed ends....Three knit wool gloves were found in the Campbell baggage (Catalog #3698). One was very small, clearly a child's glove, 4 7/8 inches long. The other two are a pair of slightly larger gloves, 6 inches long, for a woman or larger child. They are made of brown wool stockinette knit with elastic at the wrist. They appear to be hand made."

I'm trying to get to the post office today to mail this dissertation to Bill Christen, so this will be the last I can post from it for a while.

Vicki Betts
vbetts@gower.net

[KarinTimour]

Re: Sweaters???

Dear Miss Vicki:

Thank you so much for posting such lovely excerpts from the dissertation! The oval hats sound as though they were all women's bonnets, it's terrific to get the dimensions of the scarves, as that's an issue that's been discussed several times on the civilian side, I'm going to go post a note for them to come see your note about scarf dimensions. And as a hopelessly sock-obsessed person, your mention of the black and brown socks was wonderful.

Initially I read the note about the woman knitting wrist warmers as saying that the wrist warmers made it easier for her to read (I was assuming they held her sleves off the page), but on second thought I think she is saying that the knitting was mindless enough that she could read and knit at the same time -- another little window into the past.

Sincerely,
Karin Timour
Atlantic Guard Soldiers Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[MrsArmstrong]

Re: Sweaters

This has been very interesting information about "sweaters" if that is what they were called.
I recently came across in a book of assorted compilations of Godey's patterns from various years and there are, which to my "modern" eyes is, one long sleeved and one short sleeved pull over sweater, they are not dated and I believe from a later period. They are called a "knitted vest" They happen to be for women and they do not look like a vest to my modern eyes.
These made me think about what is a "vest" in the 19th century. If any one has a dictionary from the 19th century, please what does it say.

I did find one in The Dictionary of Needlework (1887)
"Vest.-A generic term, signifying a garment, but adopted to denote a special article of wear, as in the case of the word Vestment. A Vest now means a waistcoat, of a closely-fitted elastic article of underclothing, worn by both sexes, with or without long sleeves, and with either a high or low neck. They are worn inside a shirt or chemise and are to be had in spun silk, merino, lambswool, cotton or silk and wool. These latter may be worn all the year round, and do not shrink when washed. Cotton vests are to be had both bleached and unbleached, and are strong and thick. Vests may be had both hand-made and machine made; the trade in the former is extensively carried on by Scotchwomen, who knit them at a reasonable charge."

Has anyone come across a pattern for a "knitted vest" in the 1860's or earlier? Used as a undergarment this would keep you warm.
Susan Armstrong

[Chuck Winchester]

Re: Sweaters

The term vest in England still refers to a knitted undergarment. We in the US would call it a tank top. An American vest is still a waistcoat (pronounced wes'c't) in England.
This has been a very informative thread; thanks Vicki and Karin and others for the info. Whenever the old archives become available again there have been some interesting dicussions on "sweaters" in the past two years. On a previous post I mentioned that one of our Pickett's Mill volunteers about five years ago showed me a photo. of one of his ancestors taken a Dalton in the Winter of '63-'64. the photo. was from the lower chest up. He was wearing a Jean cloth shell jacket with dark collar and a dark colored hat. Under his jacket he wore a knitted shirt with a boat neck collar. No buttons were visable on the garment. Under the "sweater" was readily visable the collar and top button on his shirt. In the photo. the "sweater" appeared lighter than the jacket but darker than the shirt (which appeared-off white). Tried to copy and photograph the original photo. but it didn't turn out well at all. I have since tried to contact the individual who owned the photo. but he seems to have disappeared from the face of the earth. If I ever get my hands on it again I will make a viable copy and post it here. I've looked at quite a few period photo's and feel this one to be authentic. But without a copy of the picture it's just my word...not much good as authentication goes! :) Keep 'em coming,
Chuck Winchester
ps: "sweater" is a post-period term (and very American!) It comes from the time when College ball teams wore them for sporting events, when they got "sweaty". Late 19th Cent.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Sweaters???

Since about 1500 the term waistcoat has been applied to an outer garment. Some appear to be mere sleeveless covers for doublets, others resemble 18TH century regimental jackets with and without the sleeves and collars and while others are basically wool, button-up ''sweater'' vests.

[markj]

Re: Sweaters???

Greetings,

I just put in a bid on this. Aside from the interesting sweater-type garment, I think this guy is everybody's worst nightmare for a "grand-pappy":

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2220337738&category=13960

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[vbetts]

Re: Sweaters???

I"m currently reading _My Diary in America in the Midst of War_, by George Augusts Sala. 2d ed. London: Tinsley Brothers, 1865, vol. 1. At Christmas, 1863, Sala had already had enough "American flagism" and yearned to drink a toast under the Union jack. He headed north on the train toward Canada and was laid over for twelve hours at Rouse's Point, Vermont. Sala went to complain to Myers, the traffic manager of the Montreal and Champlain Railway.

"But Myers was ready for any number of 'fites.' He was in fighting trim. He wore a very close-fitting vest or jerkin or polka jacket of knitted woollen stuff, so that you had no chance of laying hold of the skirts of his garment, and his spiky grey hair was cut close to his head, so that you could grasp no lovelocks of his, and procure no purchase if, with tentative thumbs, you strove to gouge him." (p.123)

Vicki Betts

[Chuck Winchester]

Re: Sweaters???

What happened to the two posts with the wonderful photo's of knitted garments that were here a few days ago? I'd like to compare them to the e-bay photo. Can we get them back? Did I dream this?

Chuck Winchester

[markj]

Re: Sweaters???

Greetings,

For those intrigued by the Steamer Bertrand thesis, here is a link to see a free 24-page preview of the entire work. You can buy it from University Microfilms International either in hard-copy, microfiche, or Adobe pdf:

http://wwwlib.umi.com/dissertations/preview/3060809#index

You may want to surf around in the on-line database. It's quite interesting.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[MrsArmstrong]

Re: Sweaters??? KNIT JACKETS

I recently came across articles and advertisements for knit jackets (quite a few knit jacket advertisements for sale)

The Norfolk Post (Norfolk VA) October 14, 1865
PRIVATE LETTERS FROM GEN. LEE AND MR. DAVIS.--the Troy (New York) Times says: "A friend from Washington has exhumed the following letters from a mass of correspondence captured and forwarded to the government. The epistle now sees the light for the first time:"

General R.E. Lee write's to a young woman under date of "Camp near Petersburg, February 11, 1865, "thanking her for a gift of a warm, knit jacket,...


The Daily Dispatch. (Richmond VA) November 16, 1864
Baltimore, October 14, 1864
My Dear Sir
My short acquaintance with you would hardly, under ordinary circumstances, warrant my thus addressing you; but I know you to be a christian gentleman, and as such I appeal to you in an emergency of appalling magnitude...
It is useless to appeal to the Secretary of War. It rest with the men of the North to remove this foul stain from our country. The officers in charge of the prison at Elmira are kind and humane, but the condition of things is beyond their power to remedy. A quantity of coarse, warm clothing is immediately required. Socks, under-clothing, blankets and thick knit jackets are wanted for hospital use;

Daily Ohio statesman., January 28, 1865, Image 3
About Daily Ohio statesman. (Columbus, Ohio) 1855-1870

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84028645/1865-01-28/ed-1/seq-3/

CITY ITEMS
AUCTION SALE
OF
Dry Goods, Clothing, Hats, Caps, and
Furnishing Goods
...15 doz. Knit Jackets...

Here is an "English" advertisement, they request the measurement of the chest and waist
Bell's Live in London and Sporting Chronicle, November 11, 1855
ADE'S KNITTED CORINGTON WAISTCOAT. This newly invented and useful article is invaluable to the sporting man, being made of stout knitted wool, both back and front, thus forming a complete safeguard against colds in the chest and loins. To travellers, invalids, and officers wintering in the Crimea, they are particularly recommended, as, the shape being that of an ordinary waistcoat, it can be worn either as an outside or inner garment. To be had only of EDWIN ADE, hosier, &c. 415, Oxford street, London. Price 10s 6d, and 12s 6d.--N.B. Size round waist and chest required.

Susan Armstrong

[Nighthawk]

Re: Sweaters??? KNIT JACKETS

Mrs. Armstrong,

With all due respect, Ma'am, This thread is 9 years old.

[MrsArmstrong]

Re: Sweaters???

Additional information...keeping it all together...I've saved the link for that purpose.