English Imported Gear

[markj]

Re: I&C knapsack w/ Fed?

I don't personally know of any although, as you inferred, captured items might have been used. English-made accoutrements captured from Southern blockade runners were, as an 1863 item in the "United States Army & Navy Journal" noted, issued to Federal troops when available or necessary.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[1stMaine]

Re: I&C knapsack w/ Fed?

Comrade,

In all of my personal research into Federal purchases of English-pattern accouterments, I have never seen a purchase or contract or order regarding English pattern knapsacks.
Additionally, I have never seen an image of a Federal soldier wearing an English pattern knapsack. In every image that I have seen, where federal soldiers are wearing either complete or partial sets of English-pattern accouterments, their knapsacks have been federal "double-bag" pattern.
This, of course, doesn't mean to imply that it NEVER occured, only that I have yet to encounter any mention of it. Was it POSSIBLE for a federal soldier to have worn an I&C knapsack? Of course, providing he was in an area where a CS soldier abandoned one, and he was able to find a reason to pick it up and use it. It's just not likely that it occured.
If you are casting about for a reason to wear an I&C with a federal impression, then you really ought to ask yourself if this is PEC? Do I want to wear this item because it is kewl and neat, or will it be a distraction that will cause me to stand out from the other soldiers of my unit because it is out of the norm? Is it appropriate for my impression? The latter should be the driving force behind your decision.
respects,

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: I&C knapsack w/ Fed?

Was it POSSIBLE for a federal soldier to have worn an I&C knapsack? Of course, providing he was in an area where a CS soldier abandoned one, and he was able to find a reason to pick it up and use it. It's just not likely that it occured.

"When we struck the crest I never halted, for my mind was set on some rebel knapsack... ...I found an opportuntity to make a good choice of knapsacks, as the ground was literaly covered with them as though the rebels had been perfectly panic stricken, and in their haste to get away had divested themselves of every pound of wieght they could possibly spare. After looking over a few I chose one which I thought would supply all my needs. Upon examiningmy prize I found a good government blanket, two shirts, two pairs of drawers, a pair of light summer pants, a night cap, a plug of tobacco, and a cornpone."

Levi Wagner
1st Ohio
After the Battle of Missionary Ridge

[1stMaine]

Re: I&C knapsack w/ Fed?

Comrade,

Thanks for the post. The problem, of course, is that it doesn't state the type of knapsack he picked up, and my own reading of it would lend me to believe it was either a CS manufactured piece, or a Federal knapsack captured by the rebels and then "recaptured' by a Federal soldier.
My rational is this: soldiers in this period tended to mention things in their letters that were out of the ordinary, not the commonplace items. If it was an English pattern knapsack, I suspect that the fellow would have included that tidbit in his comments about it, since it would have been identifiable as one due to the markings the maker would have applied to it. Otherwise, it seems he found a nice "common" knapsack that fit his needs.
respects,

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: I&C knapsack w/ Fed?

Comrade,

Thanks for the post. The problem, of course, is that it doesn't state the type of knapsack he picked up, and my own reading of it would lend me to believe it was either a CS manufactured piece, or a Federal knapsack captured by the rebels and then "recaptured' by a Federal soldier.
My rational is this: soldiers in this period tended to mention things in their letters that were out of the ordinary, not the commonplace items. If it was an English pattern knapsack, I suspect that the fellow would have included that tidbit in his comments about it, since it would have been identifiable as one due to the markings the maker would have applied to it. Otherwise, it seems he found a nice "common" knapsack that fit his needs.
respects,

I totally agree with you. I just love that quote :wink_smil

[10TnVI]

Re: I&C knapsack w/ Fed?

It's a great quote but I think your applying the wrong reason to his search for a knapsack. As I interpret it ,based on the context, he was not interested in the knapsack per say as the contents therein. The soldier had been besieged in Chattanooga for some time with a supply line that could barely keep him in half rations, much less supplied with clothing and such. That's how I would interpret the following part of the quote-

'After looking over a few I chose one which I thought would supply all my needs. Upon examining my prize I found a good government blanket, two shirts, two pairs of drawers, a pair of light summer pants, a night cap, a plug of tobacco, and a cornpone."

Contextually, this suggest he was in need of the contents, not necessarily the bag its self. Your mileage may vary

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: I&C knapsack w/ Fed?

It's a great quote but I think your applying the wrong reason to his search for a knapsack. As I interpret it ,based on the context, he was not interested in the knapsack per say as the contents therein. The soldier had been besieged in Chattanooga for some time with a supply line that could barely keep him in half rations, much less supplied with clothing and such. That's how I would interpret the following part of the quote-

'After looking over a few I chose one which I thought would supply all my needs. Upon examining my prize I found a good government blanket, two shirts, two pairs of drawers, a pair of light summer pants, a night cap, a plug of tobacco, and a cornpone."

Contextually, this suggest he was in need of the contents, not necessarily the bag its self. Your mileage may vary

Actually If you read the whole story Levi Wagner states in Wagner Reminiscences, he was very interested in specifically a knapsack as well as, its contents, as his was captured at Chickamauga.

[DBURT]

British Import Cap Pouches

Apart from the sling mounted 1845 type,I am looking for information on any other types of cap pouches imported to the Confederacy from England.
There is sketchy information on a belt carried cap box, there is a pic of one in "Collecting the Confederacy" the book states its "based on the English pattern".
And Various sutlers sell copies of them as the "Enfield cap box".
Looking for a pattern date(Could it be 1854???) Could they have first been used in the Crimean war?. Also any specs,or photos of originals.
Dave Burt ACWS, England.

[1stMaine]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Comrade,

Well, Not made as such, but Massachusetts imported some 10,000 sets of English accoutrements in 1861. These cartridge boxes came with the cap box attached to the cartridge box face, and under the outer flap, towards the right side as you look at the boxes front.

Massachusetts contracted with a local tradesman to remove these cap boxes from the cartridge boxes, and to remake them (the cap boxes) so that they might be worn as in the Amrican system, upon the belt.

Additionally, images of some regiments (notably the 44th Mass) show the enlisted men using the "expense pouch" or "ball bag" as a cap pouch, and worn in the same manner and location as a cap pouch would be. It is grossly oversized, but it worked.

Those are two examples from memory.

Respects,

[DBURT]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Tim,
Thanks for your reply. In a related post a good while back you stated, Quote.
" Although the sling worn cap box was known, it had been largely discontinued in the British army,and a belt worn cap box being introduced.
Many of these newer cap boxes were imported to the South"
Its this cap box I'm interested in.
Do you, or anyone have any information on this box?
Regards,
Dave Burt.

[Charles Heath]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Tim,

To save you some typing, here's a recent discussion on the same topic:

http://www.cwreenactors.com/forum/ar...php/t-667.html

A quick glance at pages 170-171 of Paul Johnson's cartridge box book reveals a good blurb on the infamous English import goods used by Massachusetts troops, and a dandy pair of images.

[Iron Scout]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Charles,

Thanks for posting that link as I found it rather amusing. An odd combination of unsupported assumptions and real fact-interesting. Anyway, I can't wait to set the record straight (very soon I might add) on this whole Southern importation thing. Calling Mr. McRae, calling Mr. Huse...

Regards,

Neill Rose

[Charles Heath]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Thanks for posting that link as I found it rather amusing.

Get any whiplash from your neck snapping back to 1997? :D

[1stMaine]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Charles, et al,

I'll see if I can figure out the scanner function on the multi-printer thingy here and post a couple images of British cartridge boxes with cap boxes attached. I'll also drag out the dates and names of the contractor who removed them for Mass and converted them in to belt-patterned ones.

One image I have is of an Enfield box picked up off the field at Gettysburg. It has the outer flap removed, but still retains the attached cap box. It was attributed by the finder to a CS soldier.

Respects,

[Iron Scout]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Tim,

I'd like more information on that possible CS box as no other I&C marked or ID'd CS/English box has that provision. Huse clearly purchased sets that consisted of the ball bag singularly and sometimes with the sling mounted model. Thanks,

Neill Rose
PLHA