English Imported Gear

[1stMaine]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Neil,

The image I have is taken from "North/South Trader, May-June 1985", and appears on pp 25. The Box itself resides in the Milwaukee Public Museum. Years ago, when I enquired about info on the box through them, they responded that it was picked up at Gettysburg by a soldier from Milwaukee "from a Confederate soldier" and sent home. I haven't enquired any more about the box since then (probably 1988 or so). I'll have the pic up in the morning, when I figure out this new technology.....

Meanwhile, to add some data to the mix...

The "Report of the Master of Ordnance, Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 2 January 1865" , (part of the Mass. AG reports), shows that in 1862 a contract was let to a company, 'James Boyd & Sons' in the amount of $3,825.33 for the altering of 7,998 English cartridge boxes and 7,867 English cartridge box belts.

The only thing that could be altered on those boxes, which would have incurred such a large contract price, is the removal of the cap box from it's front face and remaking it to have been worn as in the American system.

Extant record show that, in Cambridge, on hand for issue on 31 Dec of 1862, were 519 altered English cartridge Boxes (emphasis mine), 388 belts for same, 399 'English black leather waistbelts with hooks', and 392 'cap or loading pouches'. Also on hand (interestingly enough) were 2,000 unaltered complete sets of English accoutrements in russett (again, emphasis mine).

The previous sets on hand that had been altered (of 10,000 complete sets purchased by the Commonwealth) had been placed in storage at the Cambridge Arsenal in December of 1861. Thus, deducting those on hand from the total inventory, some near 7,000 sets were issued during the middle to latter part of 1862. The 2,000 sets of Russett were issued in 1864 to 9 month's regiments called up for duty.

More tomorrow... I promise!!!

Respects,

[1stMaine]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Comrades,

Well, if this works, then attached you will find two scans showing a CS-attributed Enfield box with attached cap pouch. Also is an illustrative plate from Captain Petrie's book on British Army Equipments, dated 1865, showing current issue items.

Respects,

[DBURT]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Tim,
Fascinating box.Could this be one of the "650 sergeant's accoutrements"
sent in by Huse, and accounted for by Gorgas on Feb 3rd 1863???
Dave Burt

[Richmond Depot]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

I have an original russett cap pouch in my collection along with white buff ready round pouch. I will try and photograph both and post on here before I put them on ebay.

Yes, that appears to be a Sgt.'s box with the flap removed. Note that it has the pouch for the tool along with the cap pouch. I have a friend who modifies the Enfield cartridge boxes to this configuration and they look pretty good.

[LWhite64]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

A couple of comments. First of all, with the shipments of the British boxes with cap pouch attached, did they also send cap pouches? Second, another image in which you can see one of these boxes in the rosewood farm pic of the disemboweled confederate. Can someone scan that one and post it? I cant get a good copy to scan myself.

Lee

[1stMaine]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Lee,

From examining the records of the Croweshield purchases for Massacusetts (sorry, no CS on hand at the moment) it appears that the sets included a box with attached cap box, a waistbelt with snake buckle, a cartridge box belt, a bayonet scabbard, and a "ball bag" or "expense pouch".

The latter was issued to some regiments along with the cartridge boxes (with the cap boxes removed, apparently) in lieu of a cap box, and this can be seen in images of the 44th Massachusetts, one of the only two 9-month's regiments to recieve complete sets of English pattern accoutrements from the state(the other being the 6th MVM). Interestingly enough, upon examining the ball or expense pouch, there is, stitched onto the back inside wall, a small pocket designed to hold 12-24 percussion caps. It is plain leather, with no fleece, wool, or other material, and no flap over the little pocket. It's open-topped.

FWIW, Les Jensen either owns, or has access to, a snake-buckle waistbelt with such a ball bag attached to it (worn where the cap box would normally be) that is ID'd to Pvt. C.H. Leighton, Co. "I", 44h Mass. The ball bag exhibits the same internal cap pockret as described above.

Also, it's interesting to note that Massachusetts, at least, didn't differentiate much about what arms were issued to accompany these equipments. At least 3 regiments ( 3rd, 4th, & 8th M.V.M.) were issued Austrian Rifle Muskets, M1855 and English accoutrements, with the exception of the bayonet scabbard, the Austrian pattern being issued therein; and 2 regiments (46th & 51st) which were issued with M1841 rifles (Robbins and Lawrence) again, though, with bayonet scabbards designed to fit a elongated socket bayonet which accompanied the R&L rifles.

Seeing how common it was for Massachusetts to break up sets, issuing part English and part American based upon the bayonet and/or what was on hand, one has to wonder if the same might not be said of the various CS issues. As in Massachusetts, a cartridge box is a cartridge box, and a belt is a belt. The QM wouldn't care where it came from or what pattern it was, as long as the ammunition fit well enough and the item was servicable.

Respects,

[Richmond Depot]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

The concept of the cap pouch being on the cartridge box is fairly simple and pretty neat. The cartridge box was actually intended to be a reservoir only for extra cartridges and caps. The cartridges one might need for battle would be stored in your ready round pouch worn on the front of your belt in the location where we would wear our cap pouch. Your caps would be worn in your chest mounted cap pouch located on your WIDE cartridge box strap on the front of your chest.

The reason for the strap being wide is that the cap pouch is held in place by friction. The loop on the cap pouch is cut and sewn slightly smaller than the width of the cartridge box strap making a very tight fit which serves to create the friction needed for the cap pouch to remain in place. To date, I have not seen any photo's of Federals using this rig, only Rebs.

I have seen the pics of the Mass. troops wearing the narrow cartridge box strap and guess that they would be using a different type of carrier for the Percussion caps. A few years ago, I owned an original "expense" pouch and as my friend from Mass. described it, there was a small pocket on the inside that I believed to be used to store caps.

It should be noted however, that the Ready Round Pouches were also made with and without the inner pocket like the pocket in the expense pouch. My 1861 dated original does not have this feature. However, there is one in the SCCRR that if I remember correctly does have this feature.They do seem to consistently have the oiler loop sewn insde.

Additionally, I have wondered if the Brit. gear was actually imported in complete sets with the intention of being issued as such with the Enfield?

One of my favorite photo's is of Thomas Taylor, standing ,with what appears to be a 1855 Springfield wearing the Enfield box. Maybe the British stuff was mixed in circulation from the QM? Thoughts guys ?

[1stMaine]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Comrades,

What Scott is talking about is exactly true: IE, the cartridges in the English accoutrement system, were kept in bundles in the cartridge box. As rounds were needed, a bundle was taken out, broken open, and the individual cartridges were placed into the "expense pouch" or "ball bag". These were then drawn out and fired, and when all 10 were expended, the process was repeated.

This system actually allowed for ease if firing, since the rounds were kept in what was essentially a belly box, worn where the American system places the cap pouch. The soldier then needed only to reach up to his breast an obtain a cap, or into the small pocket of the expense pouch, and voila! There you go. It all depends, of course on the type of cap box and cartridge box being used. Whether it was designed for a Guards regiment, or a Line regiment.

ScottL It occurs to me also that perhaps the ball bag without the inner cap pouch might have been made later for the Snyder and/or Martini Henry where caps weren't needed anymore? Or even perhaps have had the pouch removed for use with the later systems like the Slade-Wallace? I'm just guessing off the top of my head here, as I can't really say either way.

Respects,

[LWhite64]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Found a copy, notice the box above the trigger guard.

Lee

[Richmond Depot]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Going to try and put some photo's on. It worked !!! It won't let me add any more because I am over my limit. But, it gives ya'll something to look at. The cap pouch is definitley not the type one would expect to see come from a contractor of the crown. Stitch count is about 9-10 stitches per inch on the cap pouch and 10-12 stitches per inch on the Ready Round pouch.

[Poague41stVA]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Tim,

I tried printing it off and also zooming in, but it just gets to fuzzy. Can you make out the measurements for the buff and also the black leather cartridge box slings, length and width on the original? Are the tabs sewn to the belt?

Thanks
Dave Bushmole

[jgr1974]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Well I put a big long post in here in refference to cap pouches. For some reason, it never made it to the forum! I will try to repost what I posted earlier, tomorrow! The cap pouch listed with the 1861 expense pouch is circa 1855. The type of pouch we commonly see hanging from box straps is circa 1861. These pouches are Civil War period, but more than likely used by Canadian militia. I will explain later!

[1stMaine]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Dave,

Both straps are listed, as best as I can make out, at 2&1/8 inches wide... It's hard to get close enough with the printing to tell, but I believe I am correct.

As to lengths, the buff leather strap is listed in 3 lengths: 50", 53". & 54". The Black leather is listed as available for issue in 50". 52". & 54" lengths. Why the differences is beyond me, but there must be some reason.....

Both types of cartridge box straps have their ends sewn on, the stitching is shown on my copy, but how accurate it is, or whether the illustration is meant only to show that they were stitched, I cannot say. Note, however, that the buff strap has three adjustment holes, whereas the black one only has two. Also not that both tabs have pointed, vice rounded ends.

Respects,

[DBURT]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Gents,
Thanks to everyone for all the helpful posts, I for one have learned a lot.
Now I return to my original post.Is there any information out there on the so called " Enfield cap box"

There is a picture of this box on page 82 of Collecting the Confederacy, and one is featured on page 230 of the WC Davis book "Fighting men of the Civil War".
I have tried ,apart from this forum, the National Army Museum at Chelsea, London,but nothing has been forthcoming on this "Mystery box"

We have learned of the "Ball bag" being imported, and the 1845 sling mounted pouch, which we see in various Confederate photos,but virtually nothing on this box.They must have been issued, the existing ones prove it.

But was it made in England just for CS troops,because they liked to wear the belt mounted box?
Thanks Gents, a wonderful disscusion.
Dave Burt

[Iron Scout]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Dave,

This is one of those questions we may never know. The grouping of documents I'm currently working with cover the early war period and list complete sets as containing:

Frog
Ball bag
Pouch
Pouch belt
Waistbelt
**Sometimes you'll see the Cap Pocket listed too.

These are all CS purchases as complete sets. Todd's Military Equipage also lists one of the boxes you're talking about as being owned in the Sid Kerksis collection. These obviously came from somewhere. Who knows, a later custom order for the Confederacy? Examples also show that imprinted 'CS' too.

Neill Rose
PLHA