English Imported Gear

[davim19]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

As well as being in your company in the ACWS. I also portray British infantry of the 1850's. We have got some re-created cap pouches for the period that were taken from an existant pouch in the Green Howards museum, Yorkshire. If you would like some pics and specs, let me know and I'll forward them to you.

Matt Davis
co. E 1st Tenn. vols.

[PFLINT]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

I was wondering about waistbelt mounted cap pouches. The styles I have seen referenced are the "P1854" pouch, which has no fleace to keep the caps in and has a pleat in the band holding the front and back pieces together, and another with the finial rivited on the bottom of the belt strap (I think Jaragain makes a box of this type). Can anyone comment on how frequently (or not) these boxes were used by Southern soldiers? I've yet to see any photos of belt mounted brit pouches.

[davim19]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Just until I get a chance to take photos of my british leather work, I thought I would post this picture of a recreated british unit. You can see the cap pouches on the belts. The cartridge boxes (apart from the corporals) are all fixed to the carrying ring on the back of the waistbelt as well as the sling (to relieve the weight from the soldiers shoulder and stop it from bashing on the leg).
I know it's only a small recreated unit but all the equipment is exact copies from existant originals in british regimental museums, and the portrayal taken from primary resources and Fenton photographs.

Matt Davis
1st Tenn co. E

[pipthelimey]

Re: British Import Cap Pouches

Contact the Atlanta History Center. We got to view an original, belt-mounted cap pouch that had English attribution.

Kind Regards,
Andrew Jerram

[DBURT]

English Accoutrements

Apart from the superb photos in the new book Cadet Grey & Butternut Brown.
Does anyone have any photos of Confederate Soldiers wearing English imported accoutrements?
In particular the sling mounted Cap Pouch and Ball Bag (Expence Pouch) ?
Seen many photos of the snake buckle belt and cartridge box in evidence but very few of troops wearing cap pouch and Ball Bag.
Dave Burt, ACWS, England.

[Charles Heath]

Re: English Accoutrements

Nice thread about this very topic on the WCC and a parallel thread was on this forum, as well.

[DBURT]

Re: English Accoutrements

I would like to expand the original question.Does anyone have any photos of original English imported Ball Bags,and the sling mounted 1845 Cap Pouch?
If anyone has visited museums, and have photos,please post them.
Dave Burt, ACWS UK

[militiaman1835]

British import accoutrements

I was wondering if anyone knew if the british import cartridge box slings, cap pouches (one for sling carry), and bayonet frogs were in white buff? JIM HENSLEY

[dnaples]

Re: British import accoutrements

This issue was brought up before the crash. Actually if anyone has the pictures from that thread, the ones of the use of 1845 British cap pouches by Confederates that would be cool to put back up. I believe it was said that white buff was supplied to British Guard units and black was supplied to regular British infantry units, but it seems that the colors intermixed when they crossed the Atlantic.

[Charles Heath]

Re: British import accoutrements

Jim,

If you'll pick up a copy of "The MuzzleLoading Rifles 1855-1867" printed prior to 1998, it will elminate much of the speculation and campfire BS. This essay shows up in the CS version of a sort of Hardcracker Handbook, but was originally "Chapter 2" in something else.

[jgr1974]

Re: British import accoutrements

Black and White.

Both would be plausible in '62. My understanding in Britain, white was used for regular line infantry, and black was for rifle regiments. I have a book on Canadian accouterments of the era, I can't remember it's name at the moment. I will break it out and see what it says. I would imagine that once the equipment reached it's final destination, it was colored black either by regimental orders, or by the soldier himself! I wonder if the white leather was bought at a lower price as was undyed shoes? I recall accounts of undyed shoes even being free to the government.

White accouterments went out of style in the early 1850's for the US government. I can't remeber the year exactly, but all white buff was ordered to be blackened.

As a side note. I have seen several oringinal examples of British accouterments on Ebay. Many are the 1861 expense pouch. Most of the expense pouches are white buff. Though they may be from the correcty period, I doubt if any were used in the American Civil war. Many of these were sent to Canada, I believe during '62 to militia units for fear of possible US invasion. A number were sent in later years as the British swithced to carteride rifles, the "inferior" weapons, and accouterments were sent to militia in Canada.

A friend of mine has a Brunswick pouch in his private collection. This is different than the 1861 expense pouch. it is a little smaller, and was issued with the Brunswick rifle from the early 1840's era. The pouch has a few field modifications, but is black!

One more thought before I close. I do not know if the picture is still in the archives, but there is an 1855 British expense pouch mislabled. I believe it says it is a cavalry carbine box. Though it may have been used for that after entering the America's, it was not it's original intent.

Here are the ramblings of a Mad Mick!!!

[Iron Scout]

Re: British import accoutrements

Jeremy, etc.

A few ideas here. First, be careful with blanket statements like "...I doubt if any were used in the American Civil War". There are actually a good many examples of buff CS goods despite popular reenactor perception. The first is a cap pocket ID'd to a NC soldier in 1864. This resides in the MOC and is pictured in the EOG. The other two are buff snake belts ID'd as battlefield pickups; one at Sharpsburg and the other at Gettysburg. There are also bulk leather purchases by Caleb Huse for 'buff' which is differentiated specifically from 'black waxed flesh' in the McRae Papers.

As for the box that was pictured in the archives. Having inspected the original, I firmly believe this is a marked I&C carbine box. Old South Military Antiques used to own this box and the wear from the tin(s) was clearly visable. Likewise, there are a number of specific orders for carbine boxes from Alexander Ross and Co. Just as a note, there is no mention or use of the term 'expense pouch' in any of Huse's or McRae's documents, only terms such as ball bags, cap pockets, pouches, etc.

Lastly, to answer the original question from my own humble inspections of institutional and private collections over 15 years:

cap pouches AKA 'pockets'-buff, black waxed flesh and (yes!) brown bridle
frogs-have only seen black waxed flesh
cartridge box slings-buff, black waxed flesh and black bridle

Hope this helps, but remember, this is an expansive topic that is hard to put in an ironclad box of diffinitive statements.

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[MuleyGil]

Re: British import accoutrements

"White accouterments went out of style in the early 1850's for the US government."

Except in the US Marine Corps. Black leather wasn't authorized until late in the War of Northern Aggression.

[jgr1974]

Re: British import accoutrements

Neil,

Thank you and some clarification from me- When I stated the doubt of being used in the CW I was reffering to the ones as seen on ebay. Most if not all that I have seen carry the broad arrow mark. This meant crown property, and not for export.

I am aware of whit buff examples, and do not believe they were uncommon. Just not as prevelant. I agree with you, Militaman opened a can of worms!!! I have not read the Mcrae papers, but would really love to! For some reason, the British equipment intersts me! I know there is always new resources on the market, and knowledge is constantly changing!

I will add a pet peive of my I see most reenactors making the mistake on British "Enfield" frogs. Most reenactors use the type of frog which has a strap and buckle across the frog. These were meant to be used with sword style bayonets. The triangle type bayonet frog did not have a strap and buckle!

J

[PenPusher]

Re: British import accoutrements

Those of you interested in British Accoutrements may like to find a copy of "Soldiers' Accoutrements of the British Army 1750-1900" by Pierre Turner; Hardcover; avialable from Amazon. This has scale, colour drawings of accoutrements from this period.