English Imported Gear

[1stMaine]

Re: British import accoutrements

Comrade Jeremy,

The majority of the information may be found in the 1861 & 1862 Adjutant General's Reports for Massachusetts. In them, you'll find the reports from the State Master of Ordnance which details the various issuances, conversions, contracts let, etc. These AG reports (which every state published, btw, as it was a part of their public records) are an often under-utlized source, especially for the federal reenactor. There is a wealth of data to be found within each volume, although it takes time to sort through because of their sheer size.

For a synopsis of the entire subject, as far as Massachusetts is concerned, I would refer you to the Vol.X, No.4 (may-june 1983) edition of North South Trader magazine. In it is an excellent article by Howard Michael Madaus which will answer many questions. His sources provided me with the starting point for my own research into the subject.

One interesting tangential aspect to this discussion, is the relationship between the English pattern accoutrements, and the M1841 Rifle. Massachusetts used such combinations, and also sold sets of English pattern accoutrements to both Maine and New Hampshire, along with equal numbers of M1841 Rifles. Something else to look into..... :)

Respects,

[FlatLandFed]

Re: British import accoutrements

Friend Kindred,

What about the "non-states" during the time of the Civil War?

You note "Adjutant General's Reports for Massachusetts" is an example of a good place for federal records. Would Nebraska have an AG report done post-war? If so, do you think I should check with the State Historical Society first (where the GAR records and other types of "early military" files were moved decades ago) or is there a federal office that would have these?

Nebraska became a state in 1867. I know there are AG reports for that little fracas with the Spanish in '98 and of course WW I records, but do you think this exists for 1861-65?

Thanks for any thoughts that would steer me toward the right resource.

Paul Hadley

[1stMaine]

Re: British import accoutrements

Paul,

I'd give a call to your stae archives and ask them about what records they might have pertaining to Nebraska territory troops during the Civil War. You never know what they might have.

I honestly can't answer your question, but they may well have had something similar to the AG reports for the territorial government.

Respects,

[Tim Prince]

Re: British import accoutrements

3,4,&8 MVM: armed with Austrian rifle-musket, received English accourements, but with American pattern scabbards.

47th Mass: Austrian rifle-musket; American pattern accoutrements, but with English scabbards.

46 &51 Mass: Robbins & lawrence M1841 rifles, English accoutrements and American scabbards (custom made for longer socket bayonet).

Some intersting points are raised with the informaiton abovel. In the first case, the American pattern scabbards for the Lorenz bayonets would be either the diamond throat or oval throat 2-rivet style issued for use with those bayonets by the US government.

The 47th Mass is interesting in that it is either incorrect in saying that English scabbards were issued with the Lorenz rifle muskets, or the very rare US made socket bayonet for the Lorenz was issued with these guns. The Lorenz bayonet is quadrangle in cross section and would never fit in an Enfield style scabbard. SO, either these troops were issued Austrian scabbards (leather covered wood with a metal frog mount system similar to the British one) or the very rare US made Lorenz bayonet with a Lorenz style socket and an 1855 style blade. If they were indeed issued the Austrian scabbards, this would be the first good proof I have seen of those scabbards being used by the US during the war. Very interesting either way.

The 46 & 51 Mass were obviously issued the "Drake" contract rifles with Drake bayonets. Essentially identical to the CS made Fayetteville bayonet, with the only real difference being the overall quality of manufacture and about .1 inch difference in socket diameter. The Drake bayonets were not marked on the blade, but usually had a number/letter combination on the socket. I jsut sold one with 31B on the socket. The blade is just under 20" long, which is why the extra long scabbard was required. You can see some pictures of a Drake bayonet here: http://www.collegehillarsenal.com/sh...cat=269&page=1

This is a very interesting discussion.

[DBURT]

Re: British import accoutrements

In reply to Lon Webster's post, I find it hardly surprising that ball bags were returned to Richmond.
The British system of loading the P53 Enfield must have proved too over elaborate for both CS officers and soldiers alike, in comparison to the US system.
Plus there is evidence of I&C marked accoutrements being made into cap pouches.
So it has to be likely that these ball bags were sent back to Richmond and `reconstructed` into the favoured cap pouch.

Dave Burt, ACWS, UK.
ACWRTUK.

[1stMaine]

Re: British import accoutrements

Some intersting points are raised with the informaiton abovel. In the first case, the American pattern scabbards for the Lorenz bayonets would be either the diamond throat or oval throat 2-rivet style issued for use with those bayonets by the US government.

The 47th Mass is interesting in that it is either incorrect in saying that English scabbards were issued with the Lorenz rifle muskets, or the very rare US made socket bayonet for the Lorenz was issued with these guns. The Lorenz bayonet is quadrangle in cross section and would never fit in an Enfield style scabbard. SO, either these troops were issued Austrian scabbards (leather covered wood with a metal frog mount system similar to the British one) or the very rare US made Lorenz bayonet with a Lorenz style socket and an 1855 style blade. If they were indeed issued the Austrian scabbards, this would be the first good proof I have seen of those scabbards being used by the US during the war. Very interesting either way.

The 46 & 51 Mass were obviously issued the "Drake" contract rifles with Drake bayonets. Essentially identical to the CS made Fayetteville bayonet, with the only real difference being the overall quality of manufacture and about .1 inch difference in socket diameter. The Drake bayonets were not marked on the blade, but usually had a number/letter combination on the socket. I jsut sold one with 31B on the socket. The blade is just under 20" long, which is why the extra long scabbard was required. You can see some pictures of a Drake bayonet here: http://www.collegehillarsenal.com/sh...cat=269&page=1

This is a very interesting discussion.

Tim,

Yes indeed. You are correct regarding the Drake bayonets. Although the M1841 rifles themselves were made by Robbins & Lawrence, Boston machinist A.J.Lawrence was contracted to modify them to take both his longer bayonet, and long-range sights. References to him & this contract are in the 1861 AG report.

As to the scabbard for the Austrian quadrangle bayonet, the "Master of Ordnance report(s)" only list the type of pattern (IE: English pattern, American pattern, etc) and the quantity of each. In regard to the 47th regiment, it lists 900 frogs & 940 scabbards of English pattern.

The more we know, the more questions..... sigh :)

Respects,

[LWhite64]

Re: British import accoutrements

Some of the ball bags did make it into the field though, the 10th Mississippi Infantry had full sets of English accoutrements in the late summer of 1862, how long they kept them is in question.

Lee

[Tim Prince]

Re: British import accoutrements

Tim,

Quite correct, AJ Drake was contracted to modify the M-1841's already in inventory. Re-bore them, add the long-range rear site, add the bayonet lug and supply bayonets. I should have made that clearer in the comment. The general consensus is that the Drake bayonets were British imports. One way or another I am very sure that they came from overseas. They are also quite similar to the Spanish M-1857 bayonet used on the Spanish made copy of the Enfield rifle that was imported in some very small quantities during the war.

I'd love to be able to distinguish whether they received Austrian scabbards or US made Austrian bayonets. As we all know, the Ordnance department was not always the most detail oriented group when it comes to recording data on imported items. Often similar things are grouped together, even if from different countries of origin. The constant lumping of French & Belgian arms into the same group is a good example. Since so few of the US made Austrian bayonets are extant, and since it seems that MA was handling their own equipment supplies in these cases, I would argue that this is likely proof of Austrian scabbards in use. You could cram an Austrian scabbard into an Enfield frog, and superficially they are similar scabbards, if only because of their mounting system. Very interesting.

[M.Latham]

Re: British import accoutrements

Tim,

I don't see the problem in finding the US made Lorenz bayonet.

What gives?

Respectfully,

Mark Latham

[Tim Prince]

Re: British import accoutrements

Mark,

VERY COOL! I know that you had your tongue firmly planted in your cheek on that last comment. Those are super rare, just like the other two weird US made import bayonets- the one for the Austrian M-1842 Lukart system and the one for the Potsdam. Both have the European style sockets and US M-1855 style blades. $500+ is fairly normal pricing for these rare beauties.

Thanks for sharing.

[M.Latham]

Re: British import accoutrements

Tim,

Like this one? A little rough, but the best I have currently.

I felt like sharing...

Mark Latham

[bushwacker]

Enfield Rifles and Leathers

Gentlemen,
I am looking for any information that shows if the Enfield Rifles issued to either side were issued with Enfield Leathers or with US or CS leathers.

Joseph C. Perry

[Jimmayo]

Re: Enfield Rifles and Leathers

Pictures of Soldiers with Enfield rifles can be found on line. You may have to look at many sites but they are there. Many have the US accrouterments on and I don't think the Enfield rifle is a prop since the bayonet scabbards are empty if the bayonet is on the rifle. I would post some but the pictures came from dealers web pages and I don't feel comfortable posting them with out giving credit and without permission.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Enfield Rifles and Leathers

Hallo!

"Leathers" being the "Enfield" pattern cartridge box, cap box, waistbelt, bayonet scabbard, and sling?

Curt

[Dignann]

Re: Enfield Rifles and Leathers

British import accoutrements

Eric