English Imported Gear

[bushwacker]

Re: Enfield Rifles and Leathers

What I'm wanting to know is; When Enfield Rifles were issued, were they issued with Domestic Accoutrements, or Did Enfield Accoutrements come with the Enfield Rifles. Are there records in an archive somewhere?

Bushwacker,
Joseph C. Perry

[nick19thind]

Re: Enfield Rifles and Leathers

Both were used by the Confederacy although when the Enfield was issed to US troops they used regulation leathers except for the bayonet scabbard which was British made. The Federal army used a special frog for their Enfield bayonets to hold the sheath in the same position as the Springfield.
Massachusetts troops were issued the British snake belt, cartridge box, sling and cap pouch, seized in large quantities from CS blockade runners.

[1stMaine]

Re: Enfield Rifles and Leathers

Both were used by the Confederacy although when the Enfield was issed to US troops they used regulation leathers except for the bayonet scabbard which was British made. The Federal army used a special frog for their Enfield bayonets to hold the sheath in the same position as the Springfield.
Massachusetts troops were issued the British snake belt, cartridge box, sling and cap pouch, seized in large quantities from CS blockade runners.

Comrade,

Go up a couple posts and read the thread linked to about British Accoutrements.

Your comments regarding Massachussetts troops are not correct. SOME regiments from that state received SOME parts of English Accoutrments, but only TWO regiments received entire sets. These were NOT from a captured blockade runner, but purchased in England by the Commonwealth's agent. Again, see the above thread for the particulars.

Respects,

[1stMaine]

Re: Enfield Rifles and Leathers

What I'm wanting to know is; When Enfield Rifles were issued, were they issued with Domestic Accoutrements, or Did Enfield Accoutrements come with the Enfield Rifles. Are there records in an archive somewhere?

Bushwacker,
Joseph C. Perry

Comrade,

The short answer is no. There was never a policy on either side to issue Enfield weapons with English pattern accoutrements.

There were some cases where that did occur. There were cases where English accoutrements were issued with American or other pattern weapons (like Austrian Lorenz, etc) and other cases where Enfields were issued with E nglish accoutrements, (or partial sets thereof) etc.

To the issuing authorities on either side, the issuance of both weapons and accoutrements were predicated on what was at hand at the time of issuance, NOT the source of the issued items.

If you are looking to use English pattern accoutrements with an Enfield, then I am certain you can find a reference somewhere to justify this. However, the better solution is to examine the historical records for the unit you wish to portray to see exactly what was being issued to them. You'll find some surprising combinations in there.

Again, however, the short answer is that the issuing authorities could care less what accoutrements were issued with the weapon, as long as it was compatible, and in good order. Your PEC choice should always be for American pattern accoutrements, absent confirmed data of other issues.

Respects,

[militiaman1835]

British import haversacks?

I have seen for sale haversacks called british import or CS copy of british ones. They are large canvas with two leather closure straps and square rings with leather straps sewn on back to attache sling. Can anyone document these for me? In searching the web I found this photo and it is supposed to be the 1860's pattern. Looks close to the Moses Alexander one. In the list of changes later the sling buckle was replaced by a leather loop slide. Curious to know? JIM HENSLEY

[western reb]

Re: British import haversacks?

Jim,

The only person that comes to mind in regards to assisting you with info./documentation on English imported haversacks is Don Smith of the Trans-Miss. Depot Co.

Best of luck on your research.

[Iron Scout]

Re: British import haversacks?

Mr. Hensley,

It is my personal opinion that English pattern haversacks would have been a very rare article indeed to be seen in the CS ranks. First, the McRae Papers show only one reference to haversacks in the literal thousands of I&C invoices. Second, cotton was an obvious product in plentiful supply in the South, hence I seriously doubt that Huse would waste govenment funds on something so easily produced domestically.

I know that several vendors have reproduced these haversacks but I've yet to be convinced of their actual iron-clad use. I'd be very interested in seeing pictures of the original or at least information on the institution and/or private collection where they reside.

Bottomline IMHO, certainly focus on English gear for your impression but have your haversack be of domestic manufacture.

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[jgr1974]

Re: British import haversacks?

Boyd miles does sell them. I would also echo the rarity. The haversack was not issued in the British army like it was issued in the American armies. British regulations of the day called for the issue of canteens and haversacks when on campaign. Haversacks were kept in stores whne troops where in garrison, so they were not highly produced items!

The Mad MIck!!!

[militiaman1835]

Re: British import haversacks?

What I was wanting to know is where the pattern two strap one everybody sells came from? People claim they are copies of originals but I was wanting some documentation on originals. One vendor sells them for $75 a serious outlay of funds for something without documentation or original in museum or collection. I have an interest in british import goods but carry my hand sewn tarred CS sack.
Jim Hensley

[Richmond Depot]

Re: British import haversacks?

Jim,

About 20 or more years ago, there was a haversack, believed to be of British origin that was making the rounds of the CW shows here in Richmond. This one was a white cotton type of fabric and featured some leather reinforcing on the front in the shape of a "Y"

This haversack, at the time was owned by Craig Carroll and I don't know anything about the provenance of the piece nor do I know where it is today. I never saw the bag, but have heard collectors talk about it for years and the gist of the conversations has always been, much like this discussion, about the validity of the piece.

Good topic Jim. :)

[Spongebucket]

Re: British import haversacks?

Not 100%, but from what I see, it looks like a WW1 British gasmask bag for the hood design. I used to have a good repop and folks would comment on the "CS haversack". Now I know it is not CW discussion and the bag isn't a true copy of the previously mention bag. But it does favor it.
2 pennies
Joe Blunt

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: British import haversacks?

Hi All

The " Import Bag" that I have notes on are from 3 different haversacks, 2 in private collections that are vitually identical and 1 at Wilsons Creek NPS that is simmilar in some respects.

These haversacks have the simmilar following details.
1) Square Bag with Rectangular flap
2) 2 Buckles and straps on the front of the bag ( 2 of the bage have them arranged with the buckle section on the flap)

3) The shoulderstrap is attached to a ring, or in the case of the 2 identical ones to a square frame sewn to the bag by a leather tab.

4) all are missing their shoulder strap

The on eI copy has th e best provenance to a S. Carolina soldier and is complete with half of the soldiers folding pocket knife , fork & spoon.

It was sold by The Georgetown UDC #2048, And is identified to a Pvt B. L Fraizer, as marked on his haversack.

These bags all show attributes of private British manuifacture, matching other know British items detials ( Buckles, Attachment methods, etc). Showing typical marks of English manufacture of items ( Well engineered )

If folks have any questions about the baggs I have looked at . I will be happy to discuss the details of the bags I have notes on . Feel free to contact me ( Phone is best)

At any rate these bags would be probably not too awful common ( but common enough that there are examples)

Hope this helps
All the best

Don S


The on eof the

[militiaman1835]

Re: British import haversacks?

In all the British accoutrement books like Pierre Turners the one I posted photo of is the issue pattern bag of the 1860's and earlier british army. The 65th foot in Australia does 1860's and this is from their equipment list also. Nothing like the one with two straps and buckles is shown in any books I have seen. I just wanted to know the documentation on it. Perhaps it IS british issue and a CS import BUT may not be a haversack, rather some other item maybe a clothing bag? like US issued in the 1870's. I am going to continue to research this item by contacting several of the royal regimental museums in the UK. JIM HENSLEY

[Malingerer]

Help with I&C Knapsack

So, here's where things stand currently: I have a brand new Isaac and Campbell knapsack and a set of English mess tins with cover. My question is, how do I strap/attach my mess tins to the outside of my knapsack? There just doesn't seem to be any attachment points - am I missing something? Thanks in advance.

[Knapsack Matt]

Re: Help with I&C Knapsack

The mess kit came with a bag designed to hook on to the back of the pack. I have an I&C and a mess kit, my next project is to make one. You can find pictures of the design in some books and probaly on the internet.

Matt