English Imported Gear

[paulcalloway]

Re: New article published on Confederate leather....

Thanks for posting this Ken. I need to get my hands on a copy of North South Trader.

Dave had mentioned in an email recently that this was coming up so glad to see you all made it to publication and I'll look forward to reading it in full detail soon.

[Iron Scout]

Re: New article published on Confederate leather....

Ken,

I for one applaude your and David's efforts on this very important subject. The three of us need to get together and discuss Huse's specific bulk leather purchases not only through I&C but also directly from the English curriers themselves. One of the documents contained in the McRae Collection is a 36 page running I&C invoice for the English steamer, the Justitia. Listed specifically are:

600 prs brown bridle middlings
100 prs stirrup middlings
222 brown harness backs
102 skirt backs
36dz collar basils
70 hides for collar wales
60 bag hides for valises
60 prs waxed pouch backs
30 waxed backs for ball bags
20 trunk hides
60 prs waxed middlings
20dz _ basils
60 x butts for seats
300 pouch middlings
300 belt middlings
250 waist belt middlings
500 knapsack sling middlings
150 middlings for frogs
150 middlings for gun slings
25 brown hides for pockets
20 black grain hides for pouch covers
80 black grain hides for pouch covers
200 middlings for ball bags
642lbs mixed cut leather for knapsack trimming

There is a lot that can be inferred just from this one invoice as it's so much more detailed in it's terms than Payne's notebook. I'll be interested to see some peoples theories on the use(s) of this leahter. But again, thanks for your great efforts in adding to the historical record.

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[fedhead]

Re: New article published on Confederate leather....

A very excellent and interesting post gentlemen , i have many questions but one i am very interested in at the moment is the thickness of imported leather and domestic leather that was used for belts and slings primarily in the confederacy , any help would be greatly received

[Iron Scout]

Re: New article published on Confederate leather....

Martyn,

A very broad question and not one easily answered. General concensus has it that domesticly used ie. CS leather was typically very thin, say 6 oz. for a cartridge box. While I've certainly seen examples of this, I've also seen Richmond swordbelts that were fully 9 plus ozs. Per the listing above, many of the assorted types of leather were probably listed per their weight and subesquent use in the English Ordnance system. Here's an example, I infer that the "waxed ball bag" leather was probably the weight used for English ball bags which would roughtly be around, say, 4 oz. Also take the "belt" leather which is an English term for a cartridge box sling. This could be 7-8 ozs from true examples I've viewed. Complicated, but see where I'm going?

Bottom line, weights ran the gambit in my opinion in both domestic and imported leather. Whew, hope this helps to some extent!

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: New article published on Confederate leather....

Neil,

I know strength of leather has alot to do with which part of the hide it is cut from (shoulders and back being very strong, side less so...belly spongy and not very durable). In reading your recent post, it mentions the term "middling", and it appears to be used in the application of knapsack straps, frogs and "belting"...given the application of the leather, what part of the hide would we assume it to be from?

Further, have you seen the use of this term middling among other period leather definitions?

[Iron Scout]

Re: New article published on Confederate leather....

Paul,

I have only seen the term 'middling' used in the Huse/McRae documents. I wondered for a while what cut of leather this actually was until recently. While searching some of the modern English saddlery/leather suppliers online, one had several pages from a c1900 saddlery catalog with all sorts of sporting saddle, bits, stirrups, etc. There was also an illustration of a whole hide (both halves) and all the various cuts ie. shoulder, butt and the other obvious ones. A middling was listed as a rectangular cut right behind the neck that extended half way down each of the front shoulders and then toward the center of the back. As I said, imagine a whole hide laid out with a rectangle placed behind the neck. This was obviously viewed as a superior cut and perfect when needing both length and tensile strength. Sorry, I know a long answer for a short question!

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Iron Scout]

English Leather Pics

Folks,

This is a continuation of the CS vs English leather weight/thickness discussion. I've attached several images to give folks an idea of the variations.

1) White buff English import swordbelt-fully 9 oz leather
2) I&C waistbelt-rough out-7 oz leather
3) Simple example of I&C's use of top dyed white buff for the interior strapping on one of their knapsacks
4) Just a fun pic of the proper way to affix the closure tab on an I&C box utilizing a tunnel stitch

Enjoy,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Richmond Depot]

Re: English Leather Pics

Neil,

Flip your I & C box pic and show us the outer side of the closure flap. I think your viewers will appreciate the technique a little more.

Best,

[Iron Scout]

Re: English Leather Pics

Scott,

This is the box front. Notice the tunnel stitch has not disturbed the exterior. I did check in my stack and got about every shot but that one! I'll post the back of the belt pic in a second as an example.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Iron Scout]

Re: English Leather Pics

Folks,

Here is a good example of the tunnel stitch affixing the rear of the keeper to the belt. Sorry to get so off topic! PS-note the underside of the belt is smooth grain and has been dyed also.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Richmond Depot]

Re: English Leather Pics

Until you have really studied the British stuff, it's hard to gain an appreciation of the over engineering efforts put into the gear.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: New article published on Confederate leather....

Neill,

Yes a long answer for short question, but an excellent one at that. I may be travelling to Colombia in a few months for work, and would love to finally meet you. Last time I spent time in the area, I never made it to any historic sites or museums, and would love to do both.

Question: How much of the old SC Military Institute "The Arsenal" is left in the city? I'm assuming not much, but that hopefully a marker is placed in the area?

[Iron Scout]

Re: New article published on Confederate leather....

Paul,

Very little left is correct although there are markers and at least one remaining structure. There's plently to see though such as the Robert Mills House, Hampton-Prestion Mansion, Chesnut Cottage, etc. We can also get into some items at the SCCRR&M along with the State Museum. Hey, might even let you look at some of the McRae Papers. Just let me know prior.

Cheers,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: New article published on Confederate leather....

Gents-

Never forget the Governor's Mansion in Columbia, SC was the superintendant's (president's) house of the South Carolina Military Academy at the Arsenal. 'Course, you can't tour that or Gov. Sanford might take umbrage to it. ;)

From what I have read in the Annals of The Citadel (This, my beloved institution...) official knob knowledge, the pre-war Arsenal was the freshman year cadets' preparatory school until they transferred from Columbia to Charleston in their sophomore year to complete officer training.
Sherman put an end to that sadly.:(

Yet I digress...

Great thread... Johnny Lloyd

[onemoreb]

Isaac and Campbell Pack Straps

Does any one have any documentation on the shoulder strap "system" for Isaac and Campbell packs. During the Crimean War the British had some packs with straps that could be removed from the pack and would carry only a blanket and mess tins. I personally have only seen the "Y" configuration that buckles to the bottom of the pack. If anyone has information that this other variation was used during the "Late Unpleasantness" it would be greatly appreciated.