English Imported Gear

[LWhite64]

Re: English Imported Gear

I know of quite a few hooks and eyes that have been found around Dalton and Resaca, including an iron set.

Lee

[ContinentalMorganGuard]

Re: English Imported Gear

I've read this thread multiple times and always find something new, but I have some unanswred questions.
1. Which expense bag was more common in Civil War use the 1855 or the 1861? Also, I saw both at a sutler recently and the 1855 model was labeled enfield ball bag, and the 1861 was labeled whitoworth ball bag. I asked for clariifcation but didn't get much other then the usual well our maker is an expert, and makes these of originals. I've been on a search for the answer and di discover the 1855 which was quiet similar to the "enfield" bag on http://hicketypip.tripod.com/equiphoto/expense.htm
2. Also most replicas and orginial 1861 expense pounes I've seen are white buff, but did they also come is black?
3. The cap pocket was there more then one style? The orginals I've seen the flap only comes part way down, but some reperductions I've seen the flap covers the entire pocket.
4. I've read hwere the expense pouch was used as a cap box, but was it common to have both the cartrige box and expense pouch in the ACW?
5. Last question does anyone have specs for the British bayonet frog that does not have the buckle, as well as the cap pocket?

Thank you in advance!

[DBURT]

Re: English Imported Gear

Robert,
Look at the Old South antiques website, on there you will find an original P 1861 Ball Bag for sale.
It has the "S Isaac Campbell & Co" cartouche, and is made of black leather.
British Army regs had the buff version of this bag for line,Guards, and Highland units, the black version was for Rifle units only.
The Old antiques site also has a "Cap Pocket" for sale, also made in black leather.

This ball bag appears to have been the one mostly used by Confederate troops, it was introduced into British Army use on 10th Sept 1861, and there are lots of this type of ball bag in various museums.

Dave Burt, ACWS, England.

[Marc29thGA]

Re: English Imported Gear

4. I've read hwere the expense pouch was used as a cap box, but was it common to have both the cartrige box and expense pouch in the ACW?

That is a question I've been curious about - how common was it for the Confederacy to issue the Expense Pouch with the cartridge box and cap pouch & were they actually used as the British system intended?

Y.O.S,

[1stMaine]

Re: English Imported Gear

Marc,

FWIW, the images of the Massachusetts troops issued with full sets of English accoutrements show them with the ball bag/expense pouch issued in lieu of a cap box. In images showing the issue of partial sets, or rather, mixed American & English pattern accoutrements, they either have an expense pouch or a cap box, but not both. None of then are shown wearing the cap box designed for the cartridge box strap, either.

How that plays into the CS usage, I cannot say, but my own personal opinion would argue against issuing both to a soldier, or for using the expense pouch in lieu of a cartridge box. None of the American manuals taught the system the English used so both soldiers and their instructors would be familiar with how those accoutrements (English pattern) were designed to function together. I simply see the ball bag.expense pouch being issued as a cap box when needs be.

respects,

[ContinentalMorganGuard]

Re: English Imported Gear

tim,
On page 10 of this thread there are two pictures of Confederates wearing British gear and the picture on the right appears to me to be wearing the expense pouch and the cap pocket on his cross strap. Look closely under his "left" arm.

Dave,
What documentation says that CS troops recieved the black bags vs. the white?

Thanks!

[ContinentalMorganGuard]

Re: English Imported Gear

I looked at the Old south antiques site, quite interesting. The ball bag/expense pouch they hvae is labeled as Whitworth or Kerr Bag. What makes it whitworth vs. the regular issue enfield bags? Seems the more I learn the more confused I get about what is what.

Thnaks!

[Iron Scout]

Re: English Imported Gear

Wow,

We're really complicating things here. First, if we're talking about CS issue items, we need to throw the 'expense pouch' term out the window. Caleb Huse calls them ball bags and later 'cap pockets' for the sling mounted pouchs. Black waxed flesh is by far the most prevelent leather remaining for these articles although there are at least three ID'd white buff waistbelts and one white buff cap pocket. I&C were producing their own items along with purchasing from other outfitters so while I'm sure the pattern was the same, the leather used differed. Anyway, I suggest folks go back to the McRae folder and do some looking around too as there's a lot of good information there.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[ContinentalMorganGuard]

Re: English Imported Gear

Thanks that helps some, so if I purchase aball bag I could go either way but PEC would have been black.
But, the question still stands were the ball bags used as they British intended in CS service or were they just glorified cap pouches?

[Iron Scout]

Re: English Imported Gear

Robert,

Simple answer is I'm sure the soldier used them how he wished like soldiers do. What's interesting though is it appears the importation of ball bags really dropped off in 1862 while purchases of cap pockets increased. Just FYI.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[DBURT]

Re: English Imported Gear

It seems the Ball Bag was'nt liked by the Confederate rank and file,as there is documentation saying that 1,000 ball bags were returned to Richmond categorized as " scrap leather" in the summer of 1863.
These were obviously turned into other items, and in "Collecting the Confederacy" (p 72)you will see a cap pouch that has been made from some other accoutrement, most likely a ball bag,and part of the S Isaac Campbell & Co cartouche is still visible.
The British system of loading the P1853 Enfield was very over complicated, including taking wrapped rounds out of the pouch, unwrapping them and putting them into the ball bag.
This is probably why, as Neill points out that the ball bag was gradually dropped in favour of the "Cap pocket"

Dave Burt, ACWS, England.