Image of US solider with all English accouterments

[Tim Prince]

ALL-

Here is one of those great images that I just had to share. It is a 1/6 plate ambro that I purchased at the Nashville show this weekend.

The image shows a fully equipped US soldier (more than likely a member of the 6th or 44th Mass) with all English accouterments. He sports the classic snake buckle belt, the "Enfield" bayonet scabbard and frog (note that the frog has the strap), the wide cartridge sling for an Enfield cartridge box and an Enfield rifle-musket with sling. He is wearing what appears to be a non-regulation dress coat with epaulettes. His trousers have a double contrasting color stripe on them as well. His shako with infantry hunting horn is on the table next to him. I'm not horribly up on which Mass units were issued what types of uniforms, but I'm assuming the combination of the striped trousers, special frock and the shako will make one of you guys say, "I know what unit that is!"

I welcome your comments and observations.

[Prodical Reb]

Re: Image of US solider with all English accouterments

Tim,
Nice image! first noticed the blueing on the Enfield. It is blued! Then I started looking at the Enfield........ The wide band was the first give away. Then the first band (nearest the lock) is noticably solid with no pinch screw. It is a solid band also. Then I noticed all 3 spring retainers are visible; all o this means that it is a type II Enfield. Nicely S-figured hammer too!

What is the chance that this is a "Windsor" Enfield (Made in Windsor, Vermont by Robbins and Lawrence) between 1855 and 1858. Since most of these didn't make it across the pond to the UK because the Britsh cancelled the contract (due to the quick end of the Crimean War) and forced R&L in to bankruptcy; Most of the 15,000 arms produced by R&L were sold to state militias here in the US. Both North and South State Militias. These would have been the only Enfields available during the first few months of the war. Before Importations of the Type III Enfields began.

A good source about the Windsor Enfield rifles is Tony Becks web site about the Colt Special pattern Springfield. http://www.civilwarguns.com/specmod.html

I think Tim is right and this is a NE state militia photo. Which one I can't guess though.

[Slouch]

Re: Image of US solider with all English accouterments

the lock (or at least the hammer) looks bright to me. The barrel being blued is a little iffy IMO. Could go either way

[Goat]

Re: Image of US solider with all English accouterments

Tim et al:

I am no expert, but is it possible that this really IS an English soldier?

Serious question...

Rob Willis

[Tim Prince]

Re: Image of US solider with all English accouterments

I thought the top band was wide- indicating a Type II, but I could not see the band springs (my eyes are getting worse). I agree that it likely is a Type II. Since the State of Massachusetts was buying the their equipment from England, it is very possible that some Type II's were shipped. I have examined one Type II that was not only British military marked, but also had Confederate import marks from Sinclair-Hamilton & Co. The one in the image could either be a "surplussed" gun or it could also be a left over Windsor contract gun. Many of those Windsor guns were purchased by Northern states.

I'm very confident that this is a US soldier. The shako with the hunting horn is just too much of US military look to ignore, and other than the epaulettes, the frock is fairly close to a regulation US dress coat. We know for a fact that the 6th & 44th Mass were issued all "Enfield" accouterments along with Enfield rifle muskets, so I'm pretty sure it is one of those guys. I just don't know enough about their uniforms to know if we can identify the unit by the coat/trousers/shako.

Where is Tim Kindred with his knowledge of the various Mass units when we need him?

[Goat]

Re: Image of US solider with all English accouterments

Mr. Prince, I am not here to tell you your biz, trust me. But the evidence is leading my eye to the idea that this is indeed a Commonwealth soldier, probably light infantry. Suggesting that something "seems" American and "except for" is a bit of a stretch.

I SAY THIS only because I haven't seen the original close up. As to the horn and shako, see the following as a source for leads:

http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/regts/the_rifles/history_traditions/uniform_equipment/the_bugle_horn/index.htm

Rob Willis

[Tim Prince]

Re: Image of US solider with all English accouterments

Rob,

I'm open to discussions and thoughts. That is one of the reasons that I posted the image here for discussion. The horn appears to be the US 1858 style horn, but I could be wrong. I'm trying to find an image that was posted on the A/C previously as a Mass soldier with a jacket that had the same style epaulets. The image was a 1/2 shot, so you could not see if it was a jacket or frock. Let's keep the discussion rolling and find some good evidence as to who he really is.

Thanks!

[Goat]

Re: Image of US solider with all English accouterments

Tim,

As I said, I am no expert. But I will say this, you may have a much better find on your hands than you thought!

Pitch in, everyone.

[65thgainf]

Re: Image of US solider with all English accouterments

I imagine the case has been opened to look for photographer/location/etc...details ?

I enjoyed the show this w/e. I got a nice little print signed by Mort Kunstler who was there autographing stuff. Great guy and easy to talk to.

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: Image of US solider with all English accouterments

Tim!

Thanks for posting that photo...it's a 2nd Model Enfield for sure. If you take the photo and put it in a photo program, you can lighten it up a bit, and enlarge it...you see the barrel band springs...

As far as a British, or American soldier, I couldn't tell you, but I've attached a photo of a British Soldier WITH a shako and a 2nd Model Enfield also. May just be adding fuel to the fire, but I LIKE the photo(s) you posted!:D

Kevin Dally

[JDolan]

Re: Image of US solider with all English accouterments

While I'm by no means an expert in any of this, having taken a close look at the shako, as well as the other evidence in the two original pictures, through comparing it with the linked website and photograph, I'd hae to say that this soldier is definately a soldier of the Commonwealth.

Why?

Look closely at the shako, especially in the second photograph when you enlarge it a bit. While kinda obscured, you can distinctly see what looks to be a Crown, as well as (looking just beneath it and to either side between it and the bugle proper) two metal cords similar to the silver Bugle Horn on http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/regt...horn/index.htm at the very top. The only difference being that for some reason this is clearly brass and not silver in color.
Look also to the feather/tassle on the shako on the table. It is very clearly kept in the same fashion as the commonwealth trooper that Kevin Dally posted just above me.

Besides that, should we be taking note of the way the cartridge box is slung, or was that done simply as a matter of fact because the table would be in its way if kept in its normal position?

[tenfed1861]

Re: Image of US solider with all English accouterments

Judging by the known image of the British soldier and compaired with this one,it looks like he might be a Brit.My one question is the eppilates (sic,mods please fix).The Brit has almost shoulder scales while this image has cloth.So my two conclusions is either a British soldier or an early war Federal in a weathly militia.

[RJSamp]

Re: Image of US solider with all English accouterments

Double striped trowsers......wierdest belt 'buckle' I've ever seen.....what's all of that stuff on his upper left chest underneath the cartridge box strap?

[erik]

Re: Image of US solider with all English accouterments

Looking at this image I am struck by several features.
The coat seems too short for a frock coat, while the collar seems too tall for a British tunic. The twisted shoulder cords are consistent with those worn by the Canadian Militia.
The dark double stripes with a light between are consistent with Canadian practice as is the light piping down the front of the tunic.
The shako is appropriate for the 1855 British pattern or even the 1861 pattern as it is perched on a book allowing the plate to show. I am distrurbed by the sunken crown on the shako as this does not demonstrate the best manufacture.
The buttons appear to be black, but may be gilded at the time as was often done and now appear black.
Given the above at first glance, I could surmise that this is a Canadian Militia Rifleman or given the shako plate, a member of the Rifle Brigade, stationed in Canada at this time, or even a younger member of the Royal Canadian Rifles.
The difference would be in the contrast of the piping on the tunic, and that is what I see it as, the cuffs which are invisible and the wellington boots which were very popular in the Canadian Militia.
If this image can be attributed to the Mass. Regiments it is very valuable, if to the Canadian Militia quite valuable, The Rifle Brigade extremly valuable, The Royal Canadian Rifle Regiment, precious.

Erik Simundson QOR

[Guy Gane III]

Re: Image of US solider with all English accouterments

I am not going to throw in my guess as to who this soldier represents, but after looking over the comments a second time and the photo for about 3 minutes, I'd wouldn't be surprised if it was Canadian/English/Early-war Militia.

Just some observations....

1. Did anyone notice the taped outer edge of the frock?

2. The buttons are definitely of a darker material than the more common brass. I can't fathom an officer not caring about the up-keep of brass anything. Especially should this be Militia. If brass, why would they not be colored in?? Perhaps they are pewter.

3. I wonder what the book is. (Under the shako)

4. The hunting horn looks a little bit too thick for an issue item. Could be locally made. Perhaps its not a horn at all... perhaps some type of bird. (ie: eagle, etc.)

5. Perhaps the object on this gentleman's left breast is a rosette of some sort, a ribbon or even a flower.

6. Higher up on the left leg, it seems to me that the "double-stripe" could in fact be a single, thick stripe. Otherwise, it would seem that the stripes started far apart and narrowed at the lower seam/cuff. If you look at the way the material is folding over itself, which suggest to me that the pants are very new, you can tell the welt caused by the stitching. Weird.

7. Are those shoes??? or boots?