Mainstream gear in fact more accurate? (Answer: NO)

[mslaird]

Re: Mainstream gear in fact more accurate? (Answer: NO)

There were instances of mass production of uniform clothing and leather goods during the civil war. So...if a company decided to use the proper pattern and proper materials, then utilized the proper mass production techniques of the day they could, in fact, offer a better and more authentic product at a compromise price between the cheap of the "mainstream" and the expensive of the completely handmade. (don't get me wrong, I fully believe that an artisan should be justly compensated for thier research and labor)

The "assembly line" method of producing goods existed since the middle ages. I am sure that the depots had numbers of people working on on particular item on a uniform and when they finished that item they passed it down the line where another item would be completed by another set of people. Sewing machines were used during the period and I believe that I saw in some of the research articles that I have read that some of them used stitching that is not much different than what modern sewing machines use today. I also remember reading in those articles that some of the depots would use those machines and then have apprentices or novices sew the button holes or the other items that were easier and sometimes quicker to handstitch.

I am just putting this out there for thought. Reproductions could be done in the same fashion, and just as quickly, by some of the manufacturers of uniforms that we have now that are making said reproductions. (or contracting them to be made) Whether they do practice the old style of assembly line or not, I do not know for I am not in garment industry. Apparently, the depots did not have trouble turning out hundreds of thousands of uniform items in the short amount of time that they had. (4 years) The demand from our hobby is definitely not as great as the armies that were embroiled in constant campaigning and were in constant need of uniforms and accoutrements.

As to who is stitching and assembling the product, it really does not matter who does it or where they are doing it. What matters most is how they do it. I used to use this analogy when I spoke of guitars made in Japan vs. guitars made here in the United States. Luthiery is the same no matter what continent it is practiced on. (there are only so many different ways one can skin a cat, even a barn cat)

There are only so many types of stitches and so many methods of assembly so as long as the person doing the stitching and assembly is using the proper type and method, with the proper materials then the final product will be authentic whether it is made in Knoxville, Tennessee or in Birmingham, England or Pakistan for that matter.

The problems with the larger vendors that I have ascertained from reading the postings in this thread and in the research articles concerning the same subject, is that they do cut corners in thread, material and they allow the folks that manufacture the goods for them, beyond thier oversight, to slam them together as quickly as possible without any attention to the detail of proper construction for that particular pattern of garment.

[KarinTimour]

Re: Mainstream gear in fact more accurate? (Answer: NO)

Dear RJ:

You wrote:
do we have to worry about what bloodline the sheep came from to ensure the correct yarns??......

Wellllllll, you don't, but Mrs. Lawson and I have had more than one conversation on breeds of sheep, the differences in their fleece and the qualities in the yarn made from that fleece, and which breeds are period. Of course, she spins, and I don't (yet), so she can make all kinds of distinctions between fleece and sheep breeds that are light years past what I can follow. It's not a burden to us, we're just pushing the envelope for the challenge and fun of our particular quests.

Just like you're tracking tubing dimensions and bugle mounthpieces. I have to admit, those aren't topics that I've spent any time on at all -- but as a listener, I do notice the difference when I'm around a bugler who has taken the time and effort to take it to another level.

But if you ever want to spend half an hour discussing period breeds of sheep.....!

Best wishes for the holidays for you and yours,
Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: Mainstream gear in fact more accurate? (Answer: NO)

Matthew,

You probably won't be surprised that your thoughts are generally put forth about every 18 months, and the discussion has been hashed and rehashed time and again. So I'll give you the standard stock answer we usually wind up with whenever someone gives one of us vendors an "all ya gotta do" idea... :)

Basically the difference is that during the period labor was cheap, materials were expensive. Manufacturers could pay talented immigrants pennies a day to produce their goods, and could produce them in massive numbers. Today, labor is very expensive, and materials are (relatively) cheap. Mass production for our community is completely unnecessary (relatively speaking I believe that there are less than 1,500 people out there at any given time that would purchase my products.)

As for paying folks pennies overseas to do the work for us, well, I don't feel too comfortable about doing that so that folks here can save a few dollars. There are a lot of talented people stateside that deserve our money, and deserve every penny we pay them. A few vendors have gone overseas for production, with varying levels of success, but I will let them explain their stories if they so choose, but suffice to say in most cases they have ended up being swindled by overseas manufacturing firms.

Sorry if this seems like a 50 cent answer to a ten dollar question, but trust me when I say that this topic has been discussed ad nauseum, and that every vendor gets one "all ya gotta do" idea from a customer at least once a month. :)


Best,

Dan

[mslaird]

Re: Mainstream gear in fact more accurate? (Answer: NO)

Dan,

Actually it is a very good answer. I have read through some of the threads where this was discussed at length. I too agree with your statements about providing the American craftsman with as much business as possible and where possible avoinding outsourcing. Some of my own clothing items that may not come from the approved vendors list have come from folks that are right here in my own "backyard." (The old motto, "buy American and if you are going to buy American, buy Arkansas.")

I just wondered about the larger providers of our reproduction clothing using those methods of manufacture to help moderate their overhead business cost instead of outsourcing to an overseas contractor over whom they will have very little oversight if any at all. I also understand their need to keep in business by keeping thier overhead low. However, I wonder if they found a way to use the manufacturing processes in assembly line fashion here with the proper materials and pattern of construction would they be able to offer a authentic garment at a "mid range" price? I feel that more authenticity would be achieved and the price would be attainable by the folks that have to be extremely budget conscious.

I myself would rather err on the side of spending the money on the most accurate equipment I can the first time rather than buy a stop gap kit now and have to pay even more later.

I will most likely be hitting you and yours up for some uniform items in February after this holiday season and the consequences thereof are behind me...

Thanks again.

[billwatson]

Re: Mainstream gear in fact more accurate? (Answer: NO)

"As for paying folks pennies overseas to do the work for us, well, I don't feel too comfortable about doing that so that folks here can save a few dollars. ... A few vendors have gone overseas for production, with varying levels of success, but I will let them explain their stories if they so choose, but suffice to say in most cases they have ended up being swindled by overseas manufacturing firms."

Because, in the spirit of 1862, they will likely apply 21st century shortcuts to produce a garment, when what you really want is a craftsman who can use 19th century economies to do it the way it would have been done. No matter how you cut it, replicating 19th century techniques is more expensive, even to produce what would have been "cheap" items then.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Mainstream gear in fact more accurate? (Answer: NO)

Hallo!

Sheep lie... :)

Curt
Whose wife was just at the dentist yesterday to get a crown on a tooth she cracked off with the mouthpiece of her trumpet Mess

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: Mainstream gear in fact more accurate? (Answer: NO)

Matthew,

I think that one major distinction you may not have considered is that many, perhaps most mainstream sutlers aren't tailors or seamstresses. They don't assemble garments, they are retailers. The Pakistani companies such as Markarab International (who send me one email a day trying to get me to purchase their goods) produce the garments and leather goods and then sell wholesale to the sutlers that you will see at your average streamer fest. Very few of them know more than "buy low, sell high" in regard to their business, which is fine and certainly is the backbone of our economic system! Most, with few exceptions, do the sutler thing as a side business to their day job, and aren't full timers.

So it is unlikely that few, if any have the capacity to set up a production run of five jackets made from authentic materials, let alone any sort of assembly line for hundreds. For the most part their involvement with the garments they sell is no more than sending a check off to Markarab, receiving a box in the mail, and putting price tags on them.

In the authentic end of the hobby for the most part the vendor who sold the item is the same person that researched it, sourced the material, cut, and assembled the garment. With few exceptions they will know their work at a glance even years down the road. Heck, even the fellows that serve as retail outlets for authentic items know their products through and through, and can answer specific questions about details and materials.

I suppose my point would be that the level of commitment in the authentic end of the hobby transcends the guy in the ranks, and includes the guy that made his uniform and gear. Perhaps we care more about what we sell, perhaps not. I wouldn't say one is better than the other, just different. But speaking as someone who does this full time I'll say that I care a whole heck of a lot about every last thing I ship out! :)


Best,

Dan

[mslaird]

Re: Mainstream gear in fact more accurate? (Answer: NO)

Dan,

Oddly enough I get emails from them occasionally for some reason. I have no idea how or why but I have seen that company name before. Those emails are in the pile with others of their ilk that have a rule created for them that directs them to the trash bin.

I appreciate what folks like you and your company do. One of the companies that I recently purchased some civilian items from uses seamstresses and tailors in their community and also does a fair job of oversight from what I have heard. I am waiting to see the finished product but I have heard good things.

Again, thanks for the information and the discussion. I have learned a lot.

I will email you when I am ready to order some stuff from you after the holidays.

[Sad Spaceman]

The line between good research and farb...

Like most of you, I feel that doing full research with period photos and accounts is important to an authentic impression. I am new to the forum but see that their is a list of approved sutlers, to aid in our period correctness.That said I would like to play devil's advocate for a moment if I may.

Many times in reading accounts via dairies or newspapers of the day ect, I read of the poor quality of uniforms issued to some men. poor dying methods, buttons that fall of, ill sizing the list goes on. But the point is that the US Army has always used the lowest bidder to supply them, wouldn't some of the cheaper(in quality and price) uniforms out there fill that void? I understand the the true historian will try and wear uniforms based on originals but cheap uniform would obviously not survive. Is that sutler row 45$ federal sack coat really that farb?

I would enjoy your input and perspective.

Aaron Coen