Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

    OK Folks,

    In response to Paul C's call for discussion on what makes a good reproduction widget ( http://authentic-campaigner.com/foru...ad.php?t=14688 ), I thought I'd crack the seal: Bayonet Scabbards!

    Why scabbards? Cuz my digital camera is in the shop and those were the pics that were handy.

    Attached are the pics of the stitching along the tube of reproduction Federal scabbards from two well-known makers. If anyone has an original scabbard handy, the corresponding views of the original would be a good start to a discussion. (I think once pics of an original are available, it will be seen that these two makers do a pretty good job)

    Once my camera is back in service, I'll be able to post pics of scabbards from two more makers.
    Attached Files
    John Wickett
    Former Carpetbagger
    Administrator (We got rules here! Be Nice - Sign Your Name - No Farbisms)

  • #2
    Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

    These are links to a website selling Civil War relics. If that violates any forum rules, my apologies and understanding if these links are removed.



    Andy Ackeret
    A/C Staff
    Mess No. 3 / Hard Head Mess / O.N.V

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

      I have a couple of comparisons on this page: http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/scabbard.html

      These pictures are a couple of years old and there are probably better makers around now than when I put these comparisons on line.
      Jim Mayo
      Portsmouth Rifles, Company G, 9th Va. Inf.

      CW Show and Tell Site
      http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/index.html

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

        John,

        Thanks for the photo! It is a great place for me to start asking questions. First off, were there other ways of joining this seam? From the image John provides, I think we see two modes of attaching this seam. The top image shows a clear split between the two sides of leather while that line is missing on the bottom one. I have no experience so would someone who does please chime in and tell us a little about these two constructions methods.

        Can we draw any conclusions about where the originals these were patterned from (I am going to make the leap and assume they were both patterened off specific originals) were made by this construction detail?

        start edit***It seems from the two examples given by Andy and Jim, that the upper scabbard is made with the same construction technique as both of the first two provided original images. The link Andy gave us didn't provide the any note on the scabbard maker. Jim's credits the shown original as the Gaylord pattern.***end edit

        Those are two questions I come up with.

        Great discussion. I look forward to hearing from others.

        Best,

        Will
        Last edited by Will Eichler; 12-18-2007, 11:31 PM. Reason: saw comparisons worth making
        Will Eichler

        Member, Company of Military Historians
        Saginaw City Light Infantry
        Hubbard Winsor Lodge #420
        Stony Creek Lodge #5

        Civil War Digital Digest
        http://civilwardigitaldigest.com/

        Historic Fort Wayne Coalition
        www.historicfortwaynecoalition.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

          Here are five original scabbards. I have lettered them and will post five separate times to keep things from getting confusing. They are laid out from earliest to latest pattern*.

          To answer Mr. Eichler's questions, scabbards were either sewn with a 'butt' stitch which is where the edges of the tube come together so the seam is flat or they are sewn in a way which creates a 'welt'. This is accomplished by skiving both sides of the tube and pulling it together so it lays flesh side to flesh side. See my drawing to make this a little more clear. Also, I believe in this instance Jim is referring to the pattern of scabbard and not the actual maker.

          It is my experience that you see the earlier scabbards butt stitched and the later ones with a welt, but I would definitely not call this a rule, just my observation. It is a lot harder to sew them with a 'butt' stitch.

          I think it would be great for everyone who has access to originals to post pictures on these threads if they can. It would definitely be nice to have a place to come to see originals of specific artifacts from around the country in private and public collections.

          Bill Lomas

          *I am dating these scabbards using information from a display on bayonet scabbards by Paul Johnson at the Baltimore Gun Show, I believe 2 or 3 years ago.
          Attached Files
          Bill Lomas

          [B][SIZE="4"][FONT="Century Gothic"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]E. J. Thomas Mercantile[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
          [FONT="Century Gothic"]P.O. Box 332
          Hatboro, PA 19040
          [URL="http://www.ejtmercantile.com"]www.ejtmercantile.com[/URL]
          [email]info@ejtmercantile.com[/email][/FONT]

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

            Bayonet Scabbard A

            -This scabbard carried the 1816 bayonet which is shorter than standard Springfield bayonets.

            -Frogg is attached with stitching only and is made from white buff.

            -Scabbard tip is attached with two brads in the back.

            -Tube is 'Butt' Stitched

            From Joe Zilley's collection.
            Attached Files
            Bill Lomas

            [B][SIZE="4"][FONT="Century Gothic"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]E. J. Thomas Mercantile[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
            [FONT="Century Gothic"]P.O. Box 332
            Hatboro, PA 19040
            [URL="http://www.ejtmercantile.com"]www.ejtmercantile.com[/URL]
            [email]info@ejtmercantile.com[/email][/FONT]

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

              Bayonet Scabbard B

              -Frogg is attached with stitching and 2 copper rivets.

              -Scabbard tip is attached with two brads in back and one in front (which is unusual).

              -Tube is 'Butt' Stitched.

              -The scabbard is marked in an oval "Storms - NY - Maker."

              -Also interesting is the tool marks from the rivet setter.

              From my collection.
              Attached Files
              Bill Lomas

              [B][SIZE="4"][FONT="Century Gothic"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]E. J. Thomas Mercantile[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
              [FONT="Century Gothic"]P.O. Box 332
              Hatboro, PA 19040
              [URL="http://www.ejtmercantile.com"]www.ejtmercantile.com[/URL]
              [email]info@ejtmercantile.com[/email][/FONT]

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

                Bayonet Scabbard C

                -Frogg is attached with 7 copper rivets.

                -Scabbard tip is attached with two brads in back and two in front.

                -This tube is not in the best of shape and I can't tell if it was 'butt' stitched or not.

                -The scabbard is marked with a post war rack number.

                -This scabbard may have possibly been shortened for use with the shorter post war Springfield bayonets.

                From my father's collection.
                Attached Files
                Bill Lomas

                [B][SIZE="4"][FONT="Century Gothic"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]E. J. Thomas Mercantile[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
                [FONT="Century Gothic"]P.O. Box 332
                Hatboro, PA 19040
                [URL="http://www.ejtmercantile.com"]www.ejtmercantile.com[/URL]
                [email]info@ejtmercantile.com[/email][/FONT]

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

                  Bayonet Scabbard D

                  -Frogg is attached with 8 copper rivets.

                  -Scabbard tip is attached with two brads in back and two in front.

                  -Tube is sewn with the welt.

                  -The scabbard is marked "H.G. Haedrich - Philada." and also has an M. Lutz inspector's mark.

                  -This is where we begin to see 'fluted' scabbard tubes.

                  From my father's collection.
                  Attached Files
                  Bill Lomas

                  [B][SIZE="4"][FONT="Century Gothic"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]E. J. Thomas Mercantile[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
                  [FONT="Century Gothic"]P.O. Box 332
                  Hatboro, PA 19040
                  [URL="http://www.ejtmercantile.com"]www.ejtmercantile.com[/URL]
                  [email]info@ejtmercantile.com[/email][/FONT]

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

                    Bayonet Scabbard E

                    -Frogg is attached with 8 copper rivets and is made from blackened buff.

                    -Scabbard tip is attached with two brads in back and two in front.

                    -Tube is sewn with a welt.

                    -There is what looks to be a remnant of an inspector's mark.

                    -Again we have a 'fluted' tube.

                    From my father's collection.
                    Attached Files
                    Bill Lomas

                    [B][SIZE="4"][FONT="Century Gothic"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]E. J. Thomas Mercantile[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE][/B]
                    [FONT="Century Gothic"]P.O. Box 332
                    Hatboro, PA 19040
                    [URL="http://www.ejtmercantile.com"]www.ejtmercantile.com[/URL]
                    [email]info@ejtmercantile.com[/email][/FONT]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

                      Wow! This is way more than I had hoped for... thank you for all of your replies!!

                      Bill: Thank you for the wonderful tutorial on scabbard construction!
                      Question: On the two reproduction, it looks as if the scabbard tubes were sewn with welts in both examples. Is this correct?

                      Best Regards,
                      Last edited by LibertyHallVols; 12-22-2007, 09:31 PM. Reason: Wiping Egg from my face
                      John Wickett
                      Former Carpetbagger
                      Administrator (We got rules here! Be Nice - Sign Your Name - No Farbisms)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

                        Mr. Lomas,

                        Thank you for posting those images! What a lesson. Thank you for the quick primer on sewing that seam.

                        All,

                        Now, I'm struck by Mr. Lomas' example C. If you look at the main seam, you'll see that some of the stitiching wraps over the top of the "selvage." It almost looks as though the person making it was really rushed or had a bad day, unless someone with leather experience would correct me.

                        IF my supposition is correct, here is an example of a hastily made, or possibly shoddy made, item. This may be an example of period manners of poorly made equipment construction and have relevance in other discussion here on the forum.

                        I don't say this to start a flame war, rather to encourage discussion based on some other good threads.

                        This is a great discussion.

                        Best regards,

                        Will
                        Will Eichler

                        Member, Company of Military Historians
                        Saginaw City Light Infantry
                        Hubbard Winsor Lodge #420
                        Stony Creek Lodge #5

                        Civil War Digital Digest
                        http://civilwardigitaldigest.com/

                        Historic Fort Wayne Coalition
                        www.historicfortwaynecoalition.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

                          Will,

                          The stitching on C looks like it was done perfectly fine to me. It just seems like some of the leather has worn away over the years to expose a few of the stitches. You'll notice the same thing on scabbard A. If I'm wrong, somebody please correct me.

                          -Craig Schneider
                          Craig Schneider

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

                            Craig,

                            I think you hit it tack on. Should have let the image float in front of my face for a few minutes more.

                            Thanks!

                            Will
                            Will Eichler

                            Member, Company of Military Historians
                            Saginaw City Light Infantry
                            Hubbard Winsor Lodge #420
                            Stony Creek Lodge #5

                            Civil War Digital Digest
                            http://civilwardigitaldigest.com/

                            Historic Fort Wayne Coalition
                            www.historicfortwaynecoalition.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

                              Folks,

                              Thought I'd jump in on this one too and really mess people up with this item. This is my favorite scabbard, ever! This is from the Augusta Museum and is most likely a product of that system. The scabbard is made with three thin pieces of wood, similar to veneer, forming the three sides. The tube is then wrapped with canvas and sewn. It appears to me that the tarring was applied after manufacture. I'm hoping for a better look very soon. Oh, and the lead ball/tip has been broken off. You can see the 'plug' in one of the images. Enjoy.

                              Neill Rose
                              PLHA
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by Iron Scout; 12-19-2007, 12:53 PM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X