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**Andy Ackeret** · 12-18-2007, 10:13 PM

Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

These are links to a website selling Civil War relics. If that violates any forum rules, my apologies and understanding if these links are removed.

IIS 10.0 Detailed Error - 403.4 - Forbidden

http://www.shilohrelics.com/cgi-bin/Display_Item_Image.asp?Item=93946&image=3

IIS 10.0 Detailed Error - 403.4 - Forbidden

http://www.shilohrelics.com/cgi-bin/Display_Item_Image.asp?Item=93946&image=2

**Jimmayo** · 12-18-2007, 10:14 PM

Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

I have a couple of comparisons on this page: http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/scabbard.html

These pictures are a couple of years old and there are probably better makers around now than when I put these comparisons on line.

**Will Eichler** · 12-18-2007, 11:26 PM

Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

John,

Thanks for the photo! It is a great place for me to start asking questions. First off, were there other ways of joining this seam? From the image John provides, I think we see two modes of attaching this seam. The top image shows a clear split between the two sides of leather while that line is missing on the bottom one. I have no experience so would someone who does please chime in and tell us a little about these two constructions methods.

Can we draw any conclusions about where the originals these were patterned from (I am going to make the leap and assume they were both patterened off specific originals) were made by this construction detail?

start edit***It seems from the two examples given by Andy and Jim, that the upper scabbard is made with the same construction technique as both of the first two provided original images. The link Andy gave us didn't provide the any note on the scabbard maker. Jim's credits the shown original as the Gaylord pattern.***end edit

Those are two questions I come up with.

Great discussion. I look forward to hearing from others.

Best,

Will

**August77** · 12-19-2007, 01:40 AM

Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

Here are five original scabbards. I have lettered them and will post five separate times to keep things from getting confusing. They are laid out from earliest to latest pattern*.

To answer Mr. Eichler's questions, scabbards were either sewn with a 'butt' stitch which is where the edges of the tube come together so the seam is flat or they are sewn in a way which creates a 'welt'. This is accomplished by skiving both sides of the tube and pulling it together so it lays flesh side to flesh side. See my drawing to make this a little more clear. Also, I believe in this instance Jim is referring to the pattern of scabbard and not the actual maker.

It is my experience that you see the earlier scabbards butt stitched and the later ones with a welt, but I would definitely not call this a rule, just my observation. It is a lot harder to sew them with a 'butt' stitch.

I think it would be great for everyone who has access to originals to post pictures on these threads if they can. It would definitely be nice to have a place to come to see originals of specific artifacts from around the country in private and public collections.

Bill Lomas

*I am dating these scabbards using information from a display on bayonet scabbards by Paul Johnson at the Baltimore Gun Show, I believe 2 or 3 years ago.

Attached Files

**August77** · 12-19-2007, 01:47 AM

Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

Bayonet Scabbard A

-This scabbard carried the 1816 bayonet which is shorter than standard Springfield bayonets.

-Frogg is attached with stitching only and is made from white buff.

-Scabbard tip is attached with two brads in the back.

-Tube is 'Butt' Stitched

From Joe Zilley's collection.

Attached Files

**August77** · 12-19-2007, 01:55 AM

Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

Bayonet Scabbard B

-Frogg is attached with stitching and 2 copper rivets.

-Scabbard tip is attached with two brads in back and one in front (which is unusual).

-Tube is 'Butt' Stitched.

-The scabbard is marked in an oval "Storms - NY - Maker."

-Also interesting is the tool marks from the rivet setter.

From my collection.

Attached Files

**August77** · 12-19-2007, 02:05 AM

Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

Bayonet Scabbard C

-Frogg is attached with 7 copper rivets.

-Scabbard tip is attached with two brads in back and two in front.

-This tube is not in the best of shape and I can't tell if it was 'butt' stitched or not.

-The scabbard is marked with a post war rack number.

-This scabbard may have possibly been shortened for use with the shorter post war Springfield bayonets.

From my father's collection.

Attached Files

**August77** · 12-19-2007, 02:11 AM

Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

Bayonet Scabbard D

-Frogg is attached with 8 copper rivets.

-Scabbard tip is attached with two brads in back and two in front.

-Tube is sewn with the welt.

-The scabbard is marked "H.G. Haedrich - Philada." and also has an M. Lutz inspector's mark.

-This is where we begin to see 'fluted' scabbard tubes.

From my father's collection.

Attached Files

**August77** · 12-19-2007, 02:18 AM

Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

Bayonet Scabbard E

-Frogg is attached with 8 copper rivets and is made from blackened buff.

-Scabbard tip is attached with two brads in back and two in front.

-Tube is sewn with a welt.

-There is what looks to be a remnant of an inspector's mark.

-Again we have a 'fluted' tube.

From my father's collection.

Attached Files

**LibertyHallVols** · 12-19-2007, 04:31 AM

Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

Wow! This is way more than I had hoped for... thank you for all of your replies!!

Bill: Thank you for the wonderful tutorial on scabbard construction!
Question: On the two reproduction, it looks as if the scabbard tubes were sewn with welts in both examples. Is this correct?

Best Regards,

**Will Eichler** · 12-19-2007, 08:10 AM

Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

Mr. Lomas,

Thank you for posting those images! What a lesson. Thank you for the quick primer on sewing that seam.

All,

Now, I'm struck by Mr. Lomas' example C. If you look at the main seam, you'll see that some of the stitiching wraps over the top of the "selvage." It almost looks as though the person making it was really rushed or had a bad day, unless someone with leather experience would correct me.

IF my supposition is correct, here is an example of a hastily made, or possibly shoddy made, item. This may be an example of period manners of poorly made equipment construction and have relevance in other discussion here on the forum.

I don't say this to start a flame war, rather to encourage discussion based on some other good threads.

This is a great discussion.

Best regards,

Will

**CSchneider** · 12-19-2007, 08:57 AM

Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

Will,

The stitching on C looks like it was done perfectly fine to me. It just seems like some of the leather has worn away over the years to expose a few of the stitches. You'll notice the same thing on scabbard A. If I'm wrong, somebody please correct me.

-Craig Schneider

**Will Eichler** · 12-19-2007, 10:30 AM

Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

Craig,

I think you hit it tack on. Should have let the image float in front of my face for a few minutes more.

Thanks!

Will

**Iron Scout** · 12-19-2007, 12:19 PM

Re: Reproductions: Bayonet Scabbards

Folks,

Thought I'd jump in on this one too and really mess people up with this item. This is my favorite scabbard, ever! This is from the Augusta Museum and is most likely a product of that system. The scabbard is made with three thin pieces of wood, similar to veneer, forming the three sides. The tube is then wrapped with canvas and sewn. It appears to me that the tarring was applied after manufacture. I'm hoping for a better look very soon. Oh, and the lead ball/tip has been broken off. You can see the 'plug' in one of the images. Enjoy.

Neill Rose
PLHA

Attached Files