Cooke and Brother rifle repop

[civilwarcaptain]

Re: Cooke and Brother rifle repop

I do not carry it, it is in my personal collection.

[marktaylor]

Re: Cooke and Brother rifle repop

How many of these were actually produced? Any idea?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cooke and Brother rifle repop

Hallo!

Sources/references vary.
I learned it as less than 1,000 in New Orleans, and around 7,000 in Athens of all types.

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Cooke and Brother rifle repop

Well, they made mostly rifles and a limited number of rifle-muskets. The Osprey series (Confederate Army 1861-1865) states "The New Orleans Rifle Company (Cook & Bro) produced 550 weapons patterned after the Enfield rifle-musket...followed by an additional 1,500 Enfield rifles before the fall of New Orleans." They resumed production in 1863 in Georgia, producing another 7,000 or so.

The Osprey series is not the best source, but confirms the ballpark figures Curt provided. Like most CS produced arms, there were not many Cook & Bro Enfields produced compared to the number imported from Europe.

[brown]

Re: Cooke and Brother rifle repop

Well, as long as everyone else from Chickamauga is speaking-up on this one, here I am.
The Fuller Collection is a neat reference point for American made arms, particularly if you'd like to see a large number of 1861 Springfields with most of the various contract locks on them. Mr Fuller also brought together a number of prototypes due to his connections at Springfield. Perhaps even more impressive to this discussion are the CS produced pieces (more numerous than imports in this collection). While there aren't huge numbers of southern weapons, there are some neat examples of the variety. Also, if you go to visit the collection, remember that the 355 weapons in this collection encompass pieces that may have been used from the earliest European settlements of North America through the early part of the 20th century, with the largest portion relating to the ACW and the weapons contributing to the weapons of that era.
Marlin, the staff/volunteer at Chickamauga in question may indeed be Dale Chambers, who has volunteered at the park since the late 70's and would be an amazing contributor. He also maybe remembering the park historian who pre-dates Jim Ogden, a gentleman by the name of Dale Phillips.
Hope this adds to the thread, even if my post returns to an early portion.

[marlin teat]

Re: Cooke and Brother rifle repop

Lindsey,
sending you a p/m

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cooke and Brother rifle repop

Hallo!

A wonderful "public viewing access" collection!!!!!!

Yes, if it is still there... There is the protoype/sample M1861 Springfield "circular patchbox" butt-stock section.

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Cooke and Brother rifle repop

Practically one of a kind. Fuller was able to indulge himself with his American infantry arms collection. Claud E. Fuller was author of The Rifled Musket. Born in 1877, Fuller was a native of Elkhart, Indiana and a Civil Engineer who specialized in masonry. He had over 48 patents for different types of bricks and during the New York City building boom he made his fortune. His financial resources allowed him to accumulate a tremendous gun collection over the course of 50 years. He retired to the Chattanooga area and donated his collection to the CHCH battlefield park in 1954, and passed away in 1957. The first edition of The Rifled Musket was published posthumously in 1958.

The Fuller Gun Collection is not strictly a US Civil War exhibit, but it is very concentrated around Civil War arms of American (CS and US) manufacture. The firearms have been meticulously maintained, and most appeared unfired. In evidence there, beginning with the US 1795 flintlock are a variety of smoothbore and rifled muskets including a good sampling of percussion conversions of the US 1816/22. These older US muskets were extremely common on both sides early in the Civil War. There are excellent examples of almost every Federal Armory as well as private contractor produced US Model 1861s produced, including a very rare “UACo” US 1861 dated 1863. Union Arms contracted with the Ordnance Department in April 1862 for 25,000 arms but very few were ever delivered on that contract. I have never seen an example of one previously besides the one pictured in The Rifled Musket.

Also present in the Fuller collection were several unusual “American Made” P-53 Enfield rifle-muskets, including a few of the “Eli Whitney” variants produced from previously condemned parts. Whitneyville Armory was shipping them South until the Federal government put a stop to it in May 1861. Claud E. Fuller wrote a book on the Eli Whitney contract arms, which were obviously an area of special interest for him. Besides the “Enfield” variant the collection also includes Whitney contract US 1841 percussion rifles. There was a rare P-53 contract Enfield from “O. Blunt” marked “Union” in front of the hammer with an eagle/shield behind the hammer. Orison Blunt of New York City, N.Y., contracted with the Ordnance Dept. to manufacture "Enfield-pattern" rifle muskets in 1861. It is believed that these muskets were assembled from a combination of imported and American made parts. Only 500 were believed to be completed and delivered by May 1862 when the government cancelled the contract.

The most unusual firearm in the collection is a rare 1863 Sharps carbine with (of all things) a crank in the stock in place of the patch box. The crank had nothing to do with loading or firing the weapon and worked as a grain or coffee grinder. The “coffee mill” Sharps carbine was an experimental weapon produced for Missouri state militia “mounted foraging troops”. These were units primarily dispatched to the frontier as raiders and without a steady supply line had to be able to live off the land, potentially grinding their own grain. The idea didn’t catch on. Only one other such firearm has been observed firsthand. It was displayed in the New Market Battlefield Museum (not the VMI Hall of Valor). And there are thought to be only a handful of the “coffee mill” Sharps in existence, but of course nobody really knows.

You are to be excused if you don't find all this as fascinating as I do. Mods, you can move this to another thread if you like...it is a bit off on a tangent.

[LWhite64]

Re: Cooke and Brother rifle repop

One note on the coffee mill Sharps, it doesnt work. It will not grind coffee. A few years ago when the weapon was going to be conserved we tried it, and the mill is actually a grain mill, so coffee beans are too large for it.

Lee

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cooke and Brother rifle repop

Hallo!

A grain mill? Intersting. (Isn't Experiemental Archeology wonderful?)

I am trying to remember where I saw the last "Sharps Coffee Mill?" I think it was in 1981 at the Buffalo Bill/Winchester museum in Cody, Wyomng.

Curt

[Johan Steele]

Re: Cooke and Brother rifle repop

As a question on the Fuller collection; is it true there is a Springfield lock M1841 included? I know it is thought this was a parts gun but I believe Fuller maintained that Springfield made some.

Talk about a tangent!

[yipper]

Re: Cooke and Brother rifle repop

Mr. Steele,

Springfield Armory did make a M1841, though it was a .57 caliber percussion musket made for the West Point Cadets (506 of them made). Could this be what you are referring to? See the following entry in the Springfield Armory on-line museum:

http://www.museum.nps.gov/spar/vfpcgi.exe?IDCFile=/spar/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=2051,NEXTRECORDS=21,PREVRECORDS=1,DATABASE=33002266,LISTIDC=/SPAR/PAGE.IDC,RECORDMAX=10,RECNO=14,WORDS=m1841\

Regards,

geoffrey lehmann

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Cooke and Brother rifle repop

The 1841 Cadet muskets were similar to mini US 1842s, in .57 caliber smoothbore and with three barrel bands. This is not the same weapon as the two band US 1841 percussion rifle "but made at Springfield Armory."

The US 1841 rifle did not go into production at Springfield Armory to my knowledge, only at Harpers Ferry (one of the nicknames besides "Mississippi" is "Harpers Ferry rifle") and several commercial contractors, Whitney, Remington, Tryon (very few) and Robbins & Lawrence. This is not to say there would not be prototypes and whatnot at the other national armory at Springfield but the US 1841 rifle was not known to be in production at Springfield Armory.

I am sorry to have taken the thread so far off the initial subject of Cook & Brother Enfields.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cooke and Brother rifle repop

Hallo!

Yes, the M1841 Cadet Musket is a horse of a different color, but it does have the same lock as the M1841 Rifle.

I have seen a very VERY few "Springfield" M1841's.. may be 1, or 2. And maybe as many loose lockplates

Historically it is a fuzzy area, as the surviving records at Springfield Armory do not speak to them except for one in 1849 that says that 3,200 M1841 Rifles were produced. However, some maintain that those were not actually M1841 Rifles but rather a special production run of rifled M1842 muskets that were shortened for the Fremont Expedition.
And that the extremely rare "Springfield" M1841's are Harpers Ferry made M1841's that for one reason or another (Pre War armory recycles, or CW era refurbished, etc.,) were post-refitted with locks or lock plates from recycled Springfield made former M1847 Musketoons.
And that the loose "Sprinfield" lockplates found are M1847 Muskettoon plates and not
M1841 Rifles plates, the two being virtually identical.

Curt

[Johan Steele]

Re: Cooke and Brother rifle repop

Mr Barry & Schmidt; thank you for some more good date. M1847 muskatoon lock in an M1841 might just confuse the bejeesus out of anybody.