Cartridge Box Research Question

[JustRob]

Folks,

I am attempting to determine which cartridge box was carried by the 69th NYSV (1st Regiment, Irish Brigade) in the Fall of 1862.

I have already investigated relevant original sources, including the National Archives (equipment records for the 69th NYSV only exist for 1864) and the NY State Military Archives (no relevant records).

When the Brigade was mustered in November 1861, Brigadier General T.F. Meagher specifically requested the the Brigade be equiped with the .69 cal Musket (I am assuming the M1842, though the M1814 Conversion and M1842 Rifle-Musket are both documented to the 69th NYSM at Bull Run [& not just the Phoenix Zouaves, either])

I have photographic evidence that the 69th NYSM carried the P1837 Cartridge Box at Bull Run. I am, however, assuming the P1861 .69 cal cartridge box was issued to the 69th NYSV in November 1861. If the assumption is incorrect, please enlighten me.

The next question is whether the boxes were the Round Ball or Elongated Ball pattern?

I am speculating the production numbers may bear out which pattern was most often produced. I do not, however, have access to the excellent book by Paul D. Johnson Civil War Cartridge Boxes of the Union Infantryman

If anyone out there has this book and can enlighten me on the questions, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks in advance for the help.

[roundshot]

Re: Cartridge Box Research Question

I used to have Johnson's book, and remember that an order was issued by the QM General that the Elongated Ball box would be issued indiscriminately whenever the need for .69 round ball boxes were called for but none were available. No doubt you would be correct with either.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Cartridge Box Research Question

Also, since accoutrements were not periodically replaced through the Quartermaster Department like shoes, shirts, axes, etc but rather were an item of Ordnance like the musket or sling, they were replaced through the Ordnance Department. As such, they were only ordered when necessary, not necessarily when "newer models" became available.

[luthhaning]

Re: Cartridge Box Research Question

Rob,
I do not know what the 69th was issued for certain at this time but you are correct that by February 1862 all contracts for 69 cal were to be of the elongated type.
Also Per Mr. Johnsons book. In a telegram from General Ripley to Major Laidley "Issue elongated ball accoutrements instead of round ball when the latter are called for."
As early as July of 61 General Ripley was permitting the issuance of either 69 elongated or roundball stating that the elongated box will "take either roundball or elongated cartridges".
As I said I'm not sure there is a definitive answer at this time for the 69th, only evidence that it could have been either and you might argue it was quite likely the elongated by the fall of 62.
Tim Welch

[JustRob]

Re: Cartridge Box Research Question

Tim,

That's some good stuff. Thanks for the reply.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge Box Research Question

Hallo!

"I have photographic evidence that the 69th NYSM carried the P1837 Cartridge Box at Bull Run. I am, however, assuming the P1861 .69 cal cartridge box was issued to the 69th NYSV in November 1861. If the assumption is incorrect, please enlighten me."

Not P1839 or P1857 boxes?

To receive federal ordnance stores, the commander of of a unit had to process a "Requisition" form. When units were formed, or when items were lost or worn out, or when new recruits joined the unit, a requisition request had to be made. To a lesser extent, this was also true when a new pattern was available which was announced in a General Order.
The form made its way to the Ordnance Department in Washington, D.C. and was processed into an "Order for Supplies" form. These orders were then reviewd by the Chief of Ordnance who would then approve or disapprove of the request.
If approved, the items, say accoutrements, would be sent out from the various arsenals.
If the order was too large for an arsenal to handle from inventory, or if the order was so large as to empty the shelves- an order went out to either other arsenals, or for the purchasing from contractors, or for an arsenal to make them up such as Allegheny Arsenal.

"Ideally" the attempt was made to match the accoutrements to the weapons., say .69 round ball muskets with .69 round ball carrtidge boxes. However, supply and demand, at any given moment, could interfer with that nicety, and as previously shared, a .69 Pattern of 1861 elongated ball box would work for both a Pattern of 1857 round ball box- th ekey being that the ammunition tins/ammunition fit. And even on a smaller note, there are images of P1853 Enfield armed lads with .69 boxes (although some raise the possibility that they are possibly photographers props...).

I have not come across any documented/provenanced/dated examples of 69th NYSV box types. But, IMHO, I would not necessarily say that because the unit was formed and arms requisitioned in the the fall of 1861 that it had .69 P1861 EB boxes in 1862.
Allegheny and New York Arsenal were ordered to have .69 EB boxes on hand after April 1861 as well as .69 round ball boxes. For 1861, for example, Allegheny produced roughly a 3:1 ratio of RB over EB boxes.
What was "on the shelves" when the initial form-up requisition order was filled, and what was "on the shelves" to fill the subequent replacement, lost, new recruit requistions could have been older inventory or even current contract(s) .69 P1857 RB OR the new
P1861 EB boxes.

Others' mileage may vary...

Curt

"SNY" plates oin those boxes anyone? ;) :)

[Dignann]

Re: Cartridge Box Research Question

Rob,

Here is what I could find in the ordnance returns for the last quarter of 1862:

69th New York Infantry
Co. A - N/A
Co. B - N/A
Co. C - 14 Smooth-bored Musket, model 1842. Calibre .69
Co. D - N/A
Co. E - N/A
Co. F - N/A
Co. G - N/A
Co. H - N/A
Co. I - N/A
Co. K - N/A

Obviously, the companies weren't very good about getting their returns in. For the lone company, C, the return does list 14 Cartridge Boxes, elongated ball. Calibre .69. That being said, there are no other choices on the form other than elongated .58 calibre boxes.

Here is the information gleaned from the returns of the 1st quarter of 1863:

69th New York Infantry
Co. A - 22 Smooth-bored Musket altered to percussion. Calibre .69
Co. B - 16 Smooth-bored Musket altered to percussion. Calibre .69
Co. C - 17 Smooth-bored Musket altered to percussion. Calibre .69
Co. D - 12 Smooth-bored Musket altered to percussion. Calibre .69
Co. E - 19 Smooth-bored Musket altered to percussion. Calibre .69
Co. F - 7 Smooth-bored Musket altered to percussion. Calibre .69
Co. G - 14 Smooth-bored Musket altered to percussion. Calibre .69
Co. H - 7 Smooth-bored Musket altered to percussion. Calibre .69
Co. I - 21 Smooth-bored Musket altered to percussion. Calibre .69
Co. K - 17 Smooth-bored Musket altered to percussion. Calibre .69

Once again, the return lists a full complement, for each company of Cartridge Boxes, elongated ball. Calibre .69.

I have never seen accoutrements listed with a pattern number, such as P1857 or P1861. Outside of photographic evidence, or a surviving identified example, you may just have to use your best judgement.

Good luck.

Eric