NYS impression

[Duff]

Does anyone have any info on general "look" of NYS troops in mid 63'?

I'm not looking for the garments themselves, rather the way troops from NY seemed to wear them.

In other words, how would you be able to identify NY troops in standard Army of the Potomac uniform. (I.E. without NYS jackets, SNY buckles, and stuff like that.)

Thanks.

[JustRob]

Re: NYS impression

I have seen evidence that the NY State Jacket as issued as late as mid 1863, if not late 1863.

I have not seen any examples of SNY plates being carried by the NY regiments of the Irish Brigade.

The sole exception was a photo of a soldier of the 69th NYSM before Bull Run.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: NYS impression

There's few correct, generalized answers that can be provided for this general question. The answer is: "it depended on the regiment". Assuming the question is regarding only New York State VOLUNTEER infantry regiments, there's plenty of evidence of some regiments being issued and wearing, for example, fatigue blouses (normal Federal issue), frock coats (normal Federal issue), and in some cases New York State jackets (as Rob Carter notes above, there's evidence of issuance of New York jackets to some units until--if I recall correctly--even the last year of the war). To make it even more interesting, in some regiments there was a mixture of jacket types; one great example of this is the regiment we are portraying at "Winter 1864": the 151st New York Volunteers. This regiment was issued New York jackets, but there's photos of men wearing frocks (one entire company--Co. A--had frocks when most of the unit had NY jackets), and some men in fatigue blouses.

Others more expert in New York ordnance stores can chime in better about "SNY" brass, but I've not seen examples of volunteer regiments equipped with such brass, despite what one sees at reenactments.

In summary, unless a New York State volunteer regiment was wearing a NY jacket, its men were indistinguishable from most other regiments, except, of course, for New York City regiments having a "New Yawk accent". :)

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Re: NYS impression

I'm assuming that your primary interest is in the 61st New York. Fortunately, there's a somewhat well-known series of images made of this unit in April, 1863.

In an image of Company K, of 20 enlisted men, 17 are wearing frocks, two in blouses, and one in a New York jacket (with the relatively oddball variation of three cuff buttons.)

A similar image of Company G, depicting some 24 enlisted men and musicians, all are in frocks.

Officers, who sat for images on their own, are pretty G.I.-looking, with regular rectangular belt plates, and "U.S." wreaths on their hats.

Did these frocks stay around during that summer's campaign, though? I would expect that they would have been left behind and the blouses used instead, but not being an expert on the 61st, I can't say for sure.

Units like the 93rd, who were extensively photographed (and whose images are brought up on this forum from time to time) and, during the same period, have frocks, sacks, and jacks, US's, SNY's, kepis, and caps...

One standard thing seen throughout is regimental numerals and company letters on the crowns of the forage caps.

Not being near any books, and hoping someone with the necessary volume can verify this, it is my understanding that the SNY belt plate is kosher, but not-so-much on the SNY box plates; rather, those were issued to the mid-war National Guard units and not to the volunteer regiments.

[roundshot]

Re: NYS impression

No finer photo study exists of NYS troops in the field than those of the 93rd NY Infantry on the LOC site: http://memory.loc.gov/pp/cwpquery.html
Type "93rd New York" in the search field and download some of the TIFF versions of the photos. You'll see it all: frocks, NY shells, sacks, altered sacks, private purchase garments, a plethora of head gear and various belt plates, plus multiple uses of cap and hat insignia. These studies are a real gold mine.

[PrivateGross]

Re: NYS impression

I have seen photographs of 123rd NYSV members wearing frocks and sacks mostly, but there is a photo of Sgt. Henry Morehouse wearing a state jacket as well. It really depends on when and where they were.

Peter Gross

[roundshot]

Re: NYS impression

Here's a view of the 93rd showing a mixture of SNY's, US's, and NY NCO plates on their belts.

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Re: NYS impression

Duff:

Maybe I'm misinterpeting the question but you seem to be asking if there was a certain "style" to the way NYS troops wore their clothes.

The general answer would be no.

Soldiers from the rural parts of NYS would have a life style very similiar to farm boys from any other northern state with similiar climate and terrain. They'd wear the same general clothing as any other farm boy would wear so there was no "style" to it. Other than accents and regional particulars you really couldn't tell a New Yorker from an Ohioan, and certainly not at a distance.

Even city boys wouldn't have much "style" to their uniforms unless they were issued something special.

Two reasons - the majority of soldiers didn't (even in peacetime) have money to spend on frills. You'd have your 'Sunday Best' and then your everyday clothes.

Also military cut clothes didn't translate well verses civilian styles of the time period. I can remember reading quotes out of letters and diaries from the boys expressing a certain disappointment at not looking more military and dashing in their new uniforms.

Since the 61st wasn't issued anything really special in the way of uniform and gear, I'd just wear everything in a very general manner according to what you see in pictures.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: NYS impression

Since the 61st wasn't issued anything really special in the way of uniform and gear,

Is that actually an accurate statement? If so, based on what documentation?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: NYS impression

Hallo!

IMHO, this question is largely "unanswerable" other than "no" as there is no uniform or gear item (exception: SNY plates and New York jackets," so noted in their limited context, also some of the companies in the 69th NYSM) peculiar, particular, and documented to NY troops?

One could also answer whether that 'general "look"' question is a modern-view or a period view?

Meaning, would a Civil War soldier from say Ohio be able to look at a regiment of New York state volunteer troops and be able to determine them as "New Yorkers?"

While some of we moderns, might could delineate detail differences between a "New York jacket," or a "Ohio jacket" or an "Illinois jacket" or a "Pennsylvania jacket" when it comes to the side-discussion of what exactly "state jackets" are or are not... I doubt the Civil War soldier could.

So, I tend to see this possibly coming down to four Civil War era things...

1. Being close enough to see either "SNY" plates when and worn by some NY'ers)
2. Being close enough to see such-and-such New York regiment painted on a dedicated national or regimental flag
3. Being told by someone that "those boys are New York boys."
4. Shouting out at a passing column, "Say! Where you boys from? And getting an answer.

Others' mileage, and ability or success at identifying New York troops, will vary...

Curt

[Charles Heath]

Re: NYS impression

If you are just starting to look for the basics of 61st NYVI information, this is a good place to start:

http://ahecwebdds.carlisle.army.mil/awapps/main.jsp?flag=browse&smd=2&awdid=151

Note the mention of photographs in this USAMHI CW unit bibliography.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Re: NYS impression

this question is largely "unanswerable" other than "no" as there is no uniform or gear item (exception: SNY plates and New York jackets," so noted in their limited context, also some of the companies in the 69th NYSM) peculiar, particular, and documented to NY troops?

I'm not following a good part of the above paragraph--maybe it's not worded well, or maybe it's just me.

SNY brass is probably over-used in the hobby. I'm not aware of the US Army issuing SNY brass to any volunteer regiments. I understand it was a New York State-issue thing for selected units, probably mostly militia units.

The commonality of New York State jackets is well-known to most folks, at least those who do Eastern Federal portrayals. Tens of thousands of New York State volunteer troops were issued these jackets for at least the first three years of the war (to at least the autumn of 1863), but certainly not all New York State regiments had these jackets, and some jackets had a mix of New York jackets and other types of issue jackets.

I'm not aware of equipage that was particular to the 69th NYSM. During their first 90-day stint in Federal service in 1861 they had one Zouave company (sort of), and otherwise the regiment was clad in the red-trimmed frock coats typical of many New York State Militia units in 1860.

While some of we moderns, might could delineate detail differences between a "New York jacket," or a "Ohio jacket" or an "Illinois jacket" or a "Pennsylvania jacket" when it comes to the side-discussion of what exactly "state jackets" are or are not... I doubt the Civil War soldier could.

While I am in no position to suggest with reference to documentation what a typical Civil War soldier knew when he saw a certain jacket, I suspect that the common sight of New York State jackets in the Army of the Potomac and other Eastern Federal field armies often plainly marked a soldier as being from New York State--the buttons were distinctive, and the shoulder-epaulettes were distinctive compared to most other state jackets used in the Union armies. The belt-loop on one side was, I believe, also unique to New York State jackets, at least among Union troops.

I'm barely cognizant of the state-issue jackets for Ohio and other Midwestern states, but the photos of such that I've viewed do not, as I recall (relying on my memory can be dangerous), have shoulder-epaulettes, although a number of other aspects of their "cut" and construction, at a casual glance, may appear to be similar to those of New York State jackets.

Finally, I'm not aware of the issuance of any type of special jacket to Pennsylvania troops, short of some of those funky demi-Zouave style jackets that selected Pennsylvania units wore. :)

[Garrett Silliman]

Re: NYS impression

I'm barely cognizant of the state-issue jackets for Ohio and other Midwestern states, but the photos of such that I've viewed do not, as I recall (relying on my memory can be dangerous), have shoulder-epaulettes, although a number of other aspects of their "cut" and construction, at a casual glance, may appear to be similar to those of New York State jackets.

Finally, I'm not aware of the issuance of any type of special jacket to Pennsylvania troops, short of some of those funky demi-Zouave style jackets that selected Pennsylvania units wore. :)

One jacket that comes to mind with shoulder-epaulettes is the Krause Jacket, identified to an Ohio Private and often referred to as the "Ohio Jacket". Also, Kurt may have been referring to the so-called Pennsylvannia Issue Jacket found on pg.153 of EOG Union.

[hiplainsyank]

Re: NYS impression

Another detail of the posted photograph is that while there is a mixture of frocks and sacks, the frocks are on the NCOs, and the sacks are on the privates. While I do not know if this has been discussed elsewhere here, does this point to a trend that at least in some regiments, NCOs intentionally wore frock coats?

[roundshot]

Re: NYS impression

As far as SNY belt plates go, for a considerable period during the war the State of New York was responsible for providing the initial outfit for troops going to the front. Therefore, a good many units wore the distinctive SNY belt plate. These include the 5th, 10th, 13th,16th, 18th, 21st, 23rd, 24th, 27th, 28th, 33rd, 44th, 85th,93rd, 100th, and 149th New York to name a few. (I have been documenting these since the 1960s) . Cartridge box plates are a different animal as an earlier poster pointed out, and were generally limited to militia units. I am only aware of one SNY box plate that is a battlefield recovery and that came from the Wilderness from the position of Shaler's brigade.