Federal Waist Belt Keeper

[27thNCdrummer]

Pards,
Do federal waist belts absolutely have to have a keeper on them?
Thanks,

[Jimmayo]

Re: Federal Waist Belt Keeper

From the number of keepers I have dug vs belt plates there it seems there were a number of belts being used without keepers. Also, not all federal belts had brass keepers. I am sure someone will chime in as to the date the leather keepers went away and the brass ones came on the scene.

[27thNCdrummer]

Re: Federal Waist Belt Keeper

While we're talking about federal waist belts, when did the arrow hooked buckles start being issued?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Federal Waist Belt Keeper

Hallo!

A short question but a longer answer...

In brief and to over-generalize...

No.

The 1856 wasitbelt was initially made with a sewn "standing loop."
Previously, this was not a problem as infantry were issued the small 1839 pattern (nominal 1.6 X 2.8 inches) "US oval" plate.
The general introduction of the new M1855 rifle-musket, rifle, and accoutrements, including the 1856 pattern wasitbelt saw regular infantry go to the large "US oval" plates that the riflemen had gone to in the mid 1840's (and switched to the "French" style buckle and belt after 1855) .
The next problem popped up in 1861 when the Ordnance Department enlarged the plate to a nominal 2.25 X 3.5 inches.

Basically, the large plate did not pass through the waistbelt's sewn-on loop keeper. Basicaly, one either has to stand in the fastened belt and pull it up, or pop off the plate and reattach it.
Original waistbelts of that era are often found with the loop cut off, or removed by pulling the stitching (even though cutting belts was against "regulation.")

In the "third quarter" of 1863, the new brass keepers were introduced, overlapping existing inventory of sewn loop waistbelts as well as sewn-loop waistbelts still in the field.

IMHO, the odd thing about this is that until a few years ago, no one made the "1839 pattern" large oval US plate. Instead of any of the large "flat" plates, or any reproductions of the slight variations and varieties of the large plates, there was ONE universal, "mid to late War, "arrowhead stud" "convex" medium-large sized plate available.
As reproductions of the sewn-loop keeper 1856 wasitbelt came out (instead of just a strip of leather) , and the large "flat" belt and box plates, lads were once again having to experience the same problems as "they" did.

For me personally, not "doing Late War" too often, my large flat plate waistbelts have the sewn-loop removed leaving the stitching holes to show where it had been. ;) :)
Although I have one that was wetted and stretched to allow the plate to be forced through the loop... :)

Curt

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Federal Waist Belt Keeper

Hallo!

In brief and to over-generalize....

The "arrowhead" studs replaced the "puppy paw" studs on the US oval belt plate beginning in January 1863.
However, contractors, in the midst of their contracts, still finished them out the "old way" such as Gaylord's March of 1863 delivery. And until Ordnance stores were depleted of the old pattern.

(There has been "persistent rumour " but never verified or published, that records exist that show Allegheny Arsenal producing "arrowhead" stud plates BEFORE the War.
This gets "attributed" to author Paul Johnson's research for a reference book on waistbelts that [someone] promised us for 2005 or 2006 after he completed a book on bayonet scabbards.)

Curt

[Foggy Bottom Jim]

Re: Federal Waist Belt Keeper

Hopefully thumbnailed is an interesting example of some NY troops who have cut off their leather keepers.

[27thNCdrummer]

Re: Federal Waist Belt Keeper

Were there any belts that were produced without any sort of keeper?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Federal Waist Belt Keeper

Hallo!

"Were there any belts that were produced without any sort of keeper? "

I am not sure where your thinking wants to go with that... It is akin to asking whether any shoes were made without laces. ;) :)

Short answer, yes.

Cartridge box shoulder belts, for example, did not have keepers. The M1855 Rifleman's belt did not. Etc.

By and large, due the self-destructing nature and easily damaged by Time nature of tanned skin, leather belts are far exceeded in the surviving artifact pool by plates and buckles.
Plus, unless it is a fixture of the pattern, model, or style of the belt that has a fixed keeper, keepers are often mere sliding loops that are easily lost as they slide off the non-buckle/plate end of the belt.

IMHO, as a general "rule," when copying Period patterns and forms for established items of issuance to their CW Era appearance , always copy what the artifacts, manuals, and accounts have to say.
When it comes to say issue Federal 1856 pattern type wasitbelts, one has the option of keeping the standing loop (or brass keeper), removing or taking it off, or cutting the keeper end from the belt.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[markj]

Re: Federal Waist Belt Keeper

Hello Andrew,

Just curious: why are you asking this particular question? Are you trying to find a reason to use something specific?

There is a "Search" function at the top of this page. I would cordially recommend you use it, as you may well find the answer(s) for which you're searching.

You might also want to invest in the following title if you haven't already done so--I think there are still copies available:

http://www.columbiarifles.org/crhandbook.htm

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[27thNCdrummer]

Re: Federal Waist Belt Keeper

I'm asking the question because I have a federal waist belt that I have had for a long time. I do not remember the maker. The belt does not have a keeper so I was wondering if it was correct.

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: Federal Waist Belt Keeper

Hi All,

Regarding the Arrow Back Plates.

There are two different types

The Wide set arrow back type and the narrow arrow back type

While most arrow back plates in general are from 1863 untill the new belt plates in 1872

The wide set arrow hooks are seen on some early plates that were made at Alegehny Arsenal ( they were experimenting with this type just pre war time frame, and were the only ones producing them at the time) They were in use at the beginning of the war. Then continued in use as well untill the smaller closer set hooks with the slightly smaller plate face of the 1863 types that are seen so often associated with the brass "clip "keepers.

I have an original example on a militia web belt picked up off of Manasas Battlefield 2 days after the battle in my collection.

A great source on the different plates and when they were used is the book American Militarty Belt Plates by Michael J. O'Donnell & J. Duncan Campbell. It covers this issue very nicely.

All the best

Don S

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Federal Waist Belt Keeper

Hallo!

"I'm asking the question because I have a federal waist belt that I have had for a long time. I do not remember the maker. The belt does not have a keeper so I was wondering if it was correct."

Without going back over what was already posted... short answer: maybe.

In brief and to over-generalize...

Buff leather waistbelts dyed black were still in inventory in 1861 and were made to some small degree through 1865.
Waxed leather belts ran a brief popularity in 1861 into 1862, when the "grain" leather or "bridle" leather became popular and became the PEC/NUG for 1863 on.

Belts, per the Ordnance Manual, came in one size: 1.9 inches wide and 38.5 inches long. Most surviving belts are very close to that, allowing for minor shrinkage of the leather over time.
They typically have four factor punched adjustment holes spaced between 1 inch and 1 1/2 inches apart.

IMHO... IF you have a belt that matches that, AND has the standing loop or the early (mid 1863 or so) or late version (the one we see as reenactors) of the brass keeper- then it is "correct."

Your "Wiggle Room" is that the leather looop ("standing loop") keeper could have been cut off by the soldier leaving no stitching holes and a "clean" edge/end. But, historically, that would leave your belt shorter than 38.5 inches.

:)

Curt