shotgun ammo

[Carl A Clink]

When Sibley invaded New Mexico in 62 a lot of his men were armed with a wide variety of shotguns brought from home. My question is how did they carry there ammunition? Did they roll there own buck shot rounds or did they carry the shot loose as well as the powder? Did they sit round the camp and roll there own prior to a battle.

[Lee Ragan]

Re: shotgun ammo

They could have used .69 cal. Buck and Ball loads in a 12 gauge shotgun, thereby having ready rolled ammo. Only a guess tho. I have done a Co. C, 4th Texas Vols. Impression circa the New Mexico invasion timeline, and have on occasion used a 12 Gauge shotgun and a standard captured U.S. Army cartridge box. Those guys were forced to use anything they could find and you probably had troops using loose powder and loose shot and some using the aforementioned ready rolled ammo.
I've read a lot about the Sibley Brigade in the NM campaign, but don't ever remember anything about how the shotgunned equipped troops were supplied with ammo.

[Jimmayo]

Re: shotgun ammo

There were rounds issued for shotguns. Some were buck shot and at least one type was a slug. Don't know if they had them as far away as Texas but they did exist in Va..

[ley74]

Re: shotgun ammo

There were three distinct types of shotgun slugs issued. The Mason & McKee book, Civil War Projectiles II, has them listed. While there are several minor errors, discovered through later research, it is the definitive work on the subject.

Regards,

[Carl A Clink]

Re: shotgun ammo

Thanks for the input on this subject. I don't know if a shotgun could handle a buck and ball load. I don't want to try it and see. I will order the book and research more on the subject.

Carl A. Clink
Capt. Colorado Vols.

[Indianabugles]

Re: shotgun ammo

The Premise of buck and ball in a shotgun seems sound as most of the shotguns of the period are 16G, not 12G, and therefore .69 pretty much fits.
I have a replica period BP shotgun in 12G and a .75cal Bess ball fits in it just nice. Experiment showed loads of just 60 Grain hit targets at 50 yards reliably. Thought it better to play safe(ish)
There are some stories of tacks etc being fired from them.
Bedford Forest writes recommending Shotguns as an early war Cavalry weapon.
Dried sweetcorn even causes devastation at 50 yards!
These are just suggestions.

Christian Sprakes
9th Regimental Musician

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: shotgun ammo

Hi,

There were rounds issued for shotguns. Some were buck shot and at least one type was a slug. Don't know if they had them as far away as Texas but they did exist in Va..
__________________
Jim Mayo

Augusta Arsenal issued some sort of shot gun ammunition, but I was unable to find if it was buck shot or a slug. Columbus Ord. Depot issued 69 caliber buck shot ammunition, that are said to be used for muskets and shotguns.

[FTrooper]

Sibley shotgun ammo

There was a wonderful article on the guns of the Sibley campaign years ago in a firearms magazine (I think it was Man-At-Arms)...I have it packed away somewhere and will make an effort to dig it out this week when I am home. It goes into alot of description of the weapons and their unique ammunition! It quotes alot of archeologocal finds as well. There apparently was a patent shotgun shell with a name that escapes me (its in the article) that was quite popular with civilians just before the war. I don't remeber alot of the details except that it was wrapped in wire guaze!

Also found at alot of Sibley's camps were Volcanic Repeating Arms ammunition, and when the exhumed Shorpshire's body (I think that is who I am thinking of) he had an unopened pack on colts' .36 navy cartridges in his shirt pocket.

My 2 cents is that most of the original ammo for the Sibley campaign was civilian market stuff from the late 1850's and early 1860's with many of the men supplying their own weapons and ammunition. Most of Sibley's troops traded their shotguns for M1855 Rifle-Muskets picker up at Val Verde after they realized the range and ammunition problems they were facing, only the 5th seemed to cling to their old double barrels and that was probably because of the effect they had at close range when they charged McRae's Battery. (a side note, even most of Baylor's 2nd Texas Mounted Rifles, who had the nickname "Texas Mounted Shotguns" when they marched out to El Paso traded most of their shotguns for M1841's captured at Fort Bliss and from the US Mounted Rifle Companies captured at Fort Fillmore).

Chris Fischer
Fort McKavett
&
F-Troop

[33rd VA Co. H]

Re: shotgun ammo

There were three distinct types of shotgun slugs issued. The Mason & McKee book, Civil War Projectiles II, has them listed. While there are several minor errors, discovered through later research, it is the definitive work on the subject.

Regards,

While still a good source, the Mason & McKee book actually has more than just a few errors. The three part "Round Ball to Rimfire" series by Dean Thomas is with out question the definitive work on Civil War small arms ammunition.

[FTrooper]

Re: shotgun ammo

OK Carl,

According to Horse Sweat and Powder Smoke about the 1st Texas Cavalry. When they were still the 1st Teas Mounted rifles in 1861 & 1862 there was alot of rolling their own ammo. Many of the cartridges sent were unservicable and were broken up an rerolled according to the specific soldiers arms. Also in early 1863 they received 2 kegs of powder, 600 pounds of rifle powder, 300 pounds of lead, 50 pounds of buck shot....i addition to various calibers if cartridges. So I guess a partial answer to your question would be YES, they were rolling their own buckshot or loading it and powder separate.

Chris Fischer
Fort McKavett
&
F-Troop

[FTrooper]

Re: shotgun ammo

Sorry for the delay, but I finally found the info.

"ELEY PATENT" wire wrapped shotgun cartridges have been found at Sibley Brigade Camp Sites in New Mexico.

Chris Fischer
Fort McKavett
&
F-Troop

[EasySam]

Re: shotgun ammo

In his book about his wartime experiences, "Absalom Grimes, Confederate Mail Carrier", ole Ab writes that early in his Missouri State Guard days they would use thimbles for molds for slugs. Said they would shoot through a freight car at 300 yds. I wonder if Ab was maybe stretching that part a bit.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: shotgun ammo

Pic of shotgun round associated with the Columbus Arsenal:

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: shotgun ammo

Hi,

Here is a picture of a 69 caliber buck shot ammuntion crate and pack, made by Columbus Depot. The picture is part of the Wray Collection.

[Indianabugles]

Having experimented with black powder shotguns I am now wondering about wads as I came across an unusual effect. My two test weapons are a 12g percussion DB and a .69 1842 smoothbore. I have shot clays with these with some success and it was the clay shooting clubs regulations that caused me to question this. They Demand that fibre wads are used. Bear in mind that to 1lb of shot we are applying 60grains here with some success against clays but this is a light round with good disperson but little real power and so when we upped it to a better power 85g against board test targets. The spread tightened and we were able to get real man damaging penetration. Then the effect occured. My shot cluster morphed into a bullet. A little experimentation with paper wads showed this was only likely to happen 10%(ish) of the time. This was of course caused by flames seepng around or through the paper and welding the shot into a lump. Very understandable now why the clay club has this in regs. Anyone know if they used leather wads or the like with these shotgun ammos to stop this happening as the resuting shot weld is irregular and unpredictable?
I flask load the powder but pre roll tubes for the shot. (Which is then brightly marked with pen to ensure it is not mistaken for powder cartridge.)

Just out of interest we also drew the conclussion that even wadded slugs from a shotgun tumbled badly, LOL, as this pic shows. This has an adverse affect on accuracy. But a nearly correct fitting .75 Brown Bess ball in the 12G acheived consistantly better results so I would stand by the earlier conclusion that they would use .69 in the period 16g Shotguns as this is a close fit and would acheive similar results. Hitting a Man sized target at 50m was no problem and a good many were hitting the 100m target and this was with no rear sight.

Excuse me for this as I often think if you want to know if something works just try it and see.

Having just measured some of my thimbles one is about 16g/69cal, 70g when filled and therefore would make a just less than 1lb slug and this would seem reasonable. as for railcars at 300yrds well that would depend on what the car was made of and how the bullet was wadded. The bullet in the pic below is 1lb at 50yrds.

Christian Sprakes
19th Reg Musician