Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

[MarkTK36thIL]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Just wondering if by points 1. and 2., it might be inferred that the cartridge box was to be supported by both belt and sling simultaneously? Not an either/or situation.

I just tried this , and it seems to work rather well. The box neither flops around nor moves front to back on the hip. With the added benefit of keeping the cap box relatively correctly positioned. Also diminishes a lot of the fumbling loading and firing from the prone position, not to mention it helps alleviate " droopy 'couter " syndrome.

What say you sirs, to the historical correctness of wearing boxes in this manner?

Trying to do it right,
Kevin Ellis,
26th NC

Look at my post on page 4, or post #34.

[Duff]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

I have set mine up that way and it does provide better distribution and is more secure, but because it is so high on the back it can become awkward when you are drawing rounds.

[Bummer]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

The 93rd NY, Army of the Potomac HQ guard until the fall of '63, and a very photgraphed unit, all wore their boxes on their belts. I have looked at lots of their photos in their regt'l history, and have yet to see a SINGLE sling! These guys were obviously pretty close to the top brass yet you see all their boxes on their belts. Don't know how they got away with it.

[FTrooper]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

One reason that units "got away with it" was that in the eyes of alot of the brass was the sling was no longer a required nor even an authorized item. In 1861 there was already discussion about adopting a new European styled infantry rig that would have to smaller boxes worn on each side of the belt, this board and idea was dismissed as the seccession crisis was heating up and it was decided to keep the status quo as it was no time to start new experiments. Even so, the sling is also not the "standard" everyone wants to believe. "Riflemen" were never issued it from 1808 (the first year after the rev-war the US used a sling instead of a belly box) until 1861. Many militia units continued to wear belly boxes. Some units it the Civil War (if I am correct it was late 64 but may have even been 65) started to wear TWO cartridge boxes, one on each side of the buckle to balance their loads. And don't diregard the entire Mann's system.

Another interesting this, and the reason I look at stuff OUTSIDE the scope of 1861-1864 is found in 1874 dusing the Infantry Equipment Board. They tested every previous set of equipments and all the new experimental. The interesting note from their report is items submitted directly from the Ordance Dept at Watervliet:

"One set accountrments, buff-leather belts, pattern 1850, consisting of-
1 cartridge-box.
1 cap-pouch.
1 cartridge-box shoulder-belt.
1 waist-belt and plate.
1 bayonet-scabbard, leather, with frog attached.
1 gun-sling for musket; cal. 58.
1 N.C.O sword shoulder-belt. (Doubble frog for sword and bayonet-scabbard and plate).
1 N.C.O waist-belt and plate.
1 N.C.O sword, with leather scabbard.

One set accountrments, grained-leather belts, pattern 1861, consisting of-
1 cartridge-box.
1 cap-pouch.
1 waist-belt and plate, carrying cartridge-box and cap-pouch..
1 bayonet-scabbard, leather, with frog.
1 gun-sling.
1 N.C.O waist-belt and plate, and frog for sword."

SO, according to the US Ordance Department, the cartridge-box sling and the NCO Shoudler Belt were NOT going to be part of the pattern 1861 infantry accoutrments (which also explains why so many Sgts. are seen with waistbelt frogs).

One of my few big problems with so called "experts" of Civil War material culture is that they will never resaerch anything outside 1861-1865. Never looking at the items that influended the stuff used not the items they in turn influenced!

What this all boild down to is that there was no SET regualtion that a general would throw a hissy over. For the most parts it was left up to the regimental CO as to how and what would be carried and even then alot of the times it WAS left to the individual...as long as it got the job done.

And finally...back to what the general concensu is on the thread...what did YOU unit or the PEC of the event do? IF you have pictures of your unit with slings, then wear slings. If your private's diary mentiones they wore them on the belt, wear it on the belt. If the Corps order says to wear them on the left front, wear them on the left front, if your unit drew equipments mostly from a Arsenal (usually a Southern things) that made M1839 style boxes without belt loops, you HAVE to wear sling.
If you have no strong evidence, no other pictures of units in your brigade or division, then have your Company/Mess decide what YOU wall want to do (for uniformity).

If we have learned nothing else from this forum and the AC board in general is that there was no perfect deffinitive answer. To sum up...should my enfield be blued or burnished?

Happy Hunting Guys!

Chris Fischer
Fort McKavett State Historic Site
&
F-Troop

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Hallo!

IMHO, I think there can be a definitive answer... ;) :)

What does research and documentation show for the time, place, and circumstances of the unit being portrayed?

And, within the parameters of what a commanding officer at the regimental or company level may have enforced or not... look to personal druthers AFTER one has added say 4 pounds of weight to a cartridge box worn on the waist and then see if there was a Period choice to be made, make it.
(My thinking here being that the combination of a "full" box, and for many lads a waist line not condusive to holding up a heavy belted box, may have an effect on the decision over time...)

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[Old Overholt]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Good point, Curt. As an illustration, Charles Hoskins conducted research on the 24th MO at Pea Ridge. In the Robert Fyan Papers (Capt., Co. B) at the State Historical Society of Missouri's Western Historical Manuscripts Collection in Rolla, Missouri, Charles found reference to the following (quoting Charles here):

"... on Sept. 1, 1863, Capt. Fyan provides an explanation and accounting of ordnance stores lost on March 7, 1862 at Pea Ridge, Arkansas. He lists the following:

Thirteen (13) Springfield Rifle Muskets Cal. 58
Thirteen (13) Bayonets for Springfield Rifle Muskets
Thirteen (13) Bayonet Scabbards
Thirteen (13) Cap Pouches and Cone Picks
Thirteen (13) Cartridge boxes and plates
Thirteen (13) Gun slings
Thirteen (13) Waist belts
Thirteen (13) Waist belt plates

[Note: There are not cartridge box slings and eagles listed. Considering the detail in the rest of the report, this seems to indicate that they were wearing the cartridge boxes on their belt] ".

So for this unit at this time, there would seem to be good written evidence that they were wearing boxes on their belts, not on shoulder slings. You just have to jump in and do the research - there's no all-encompassing "correct" answer.

[Darrell Cochran]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

what did YOU unit or the PEC of the event do?

That's the key, the whole key, and nothing but the key.

Following the Battle of Gettysburg only one of the six companies remaining in the Third Infantry was found to still have cartridge box straps ... So, for the Wheatfield scenario of AHT, we're going to be carrying our boxes on our belts.

[Arch Campbell]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

My family owns a late war U.S. box whose buckles show little if any use, but the belt loops are seriously distended from prolonged wear with forty "dead men" inside.
I have on occasion, tried to wear my box on my waistbelt, however my height (5"7") means that the top of the box is practically up in my danged armpit! It's not very practical for the boys on the short end of the company.

[MarkTK36thIL]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

In light of my earlier post of a letter illustrating how some of the 36ers wore their box on both the waist belt and shoulder strap with an image, I now post an image of an accouterment set from the Sandwich Hist. Soc. of Pvt. William Coultrips accoutements from Co. F, 36th IL Inf.

William was wounded in the Perryville Campaign and to my knowledge did not see action at Stone's River in Dec. before his discharge in March of '63.

Traps

[Ryan Halsey]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Mark, What do you think about using a piece of hemp rope to hold it up. Thats what I do when doing Confederate and Western fed. I just tie it through the belt loops and the buckles. Thanks.

[roundshot]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

I am surprised at the rivet and circular pattern stitching on the front of box attached to Mark's post, particularly if the owner was wounded at Perryville and discharged in 1863. Unusual contract variant perhaps? Thoughts anyone?

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Mark, What do you think about using a piece of hemp rope to hold it up. Thats what I do when dong Confederate and Western fed. I just tie it through the belt loops and the buckles. Thanks.

Mr. Halsey,

Do you have any documentation of this practice being performed by Confederate/Federal soldiers ca. 1861-1865?

If so, please provide your basis for this method.

Paul B.

[MarkTK36thIL]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Mark, What do you think about using a piece of hemp rope to hold it up. Thats what I do when dong Confederate and Western fed. I just tie it through the belt loops and the buckles. Thanks.

:sarcastic

I guess that is why we do research. I would find a belt or shoulder strap to wear your box from. Maybe some CS guerrilla fighter did it, but just don't think so.

Bob,
You brought up a very interesting point. They were originally issued arms in St. Louis. While A and B companies received Enfield rifles/muskets, the latter of the regiment was issued .69 cal. weapons, and made good use of them at Pea Ridge, Perryville, and Stone's River.

[Ryan Halsey]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

I believe I saw a picture a long time ago that looked like they were using rope. I may be wrong, but I am a skinny tall fella, and if I lost weight and didnt have a strap, I guess I would use rope. Let me know.............

[Ryan Halsey]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Thanks, I was just wonderin. Like you said, thats why we do research.