Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Hallo!

"I am surprised at the rivet and circular pattern stitching on the front of box attached to Mark's post, particularly if the owner was wounded at Perryville and discharged in 1863. Unusual contract variant perhaps? Thoughts anyone?"

Yes, it would seem to be at odds with the formal "Pattern", as the latch tab was rivetted and sewn on the Pattern of March (26th) 1864.

However, but not saying this is the case, sometimes the formal adoption of pattern changes and improvements comes after.
There were many varieties or variations of the Pattern of 1861 box due to a variety of reasons such as Union states often ordered accoutrements that ended up already being rejected by the Federal inspectors but not rejected by state inspectors who may not have been knowledgeable of Federal acceptance policies. Plus, even the Federal inspection policies changed as inspectors were given some free reign to accept items not completely up to standards if the item was deemed "serviceable" while trying to keep up with demand. (That was largely reversed in late 1862 and 1863 by the OD issuing circulars saying what was required and what to look for, sample sets of items, advertising in newspapers for contracts, choosing the lowest bidders, and also important ordering Ordnance officers to to report problems and deficiences, etc.

Curt

[DJCasey]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Okay, this is a new one regarding the ol' cartridge belt on the belt question. Matthew Marvin of the 1st Minn noted:

"that piles [hemorrhoids] were caused by wearing the belt without the shoulder strap to support the cartridge box. The colonel thought the boys looked better without the shoulder strap."

Here is an example of the men being ordered to not use the box sling. But I'm wondering how this would cause hemorrhoids?

[gsusat]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

There is another aspect to this question - Paul Johnston's book talks of the rush in getting the troops equipped early in the war. There was an official authorization to issue sets without the shoulder strap. I believe that there were shortages in leather and sets were being received from the contractors without the belts and issued accordingly.

In 1857 the waist belt loops were added to offer the possibility of wearing the box on either the waist belt or the shoulder belt. There were complaints/ comments from the field that the soldiers were cutting the body of the box. It is interesting to me the number of CS boxes that were made for just the shoulder belt. But that is another story.

George Susat
Confederate Guard

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Hallo!

"It is interesting to me the number of CS boxes that were made for just the shoulder belt. But that is another story."

In brief and to over generalize...

If one's pattern source or model concept is the Pattern of 1839 box, then a shoulder belt only can tend to become the usual.

Headquarters 2nd Division, 12th A. Corps
"Medical Directors Office"
Camp near Fairfax Station Va.,
January 17, 1863

J. McNuley,
Surgeon Volunteers & Medical Director,
12th Army Corps.
(Referred to General Ripley]

Sir:

Having for more than a year past been connected with the examination of disabled soldiers for discharge, I have been impressed with one very general cause of disability. I allude to the habit of wearing the cartridge boxes attached to a simple belt around the lions (sic); without shoulder straps. It is now almost a universal custom to dispense with shoulder straps. The effect is that a heavy weight is suspended from the belt, which is necessarily drawn rightfully around the loins and abdomen; this impedes the return of blood from the lower extremities and thus produces varicose veins of the legs and also varicocele; It also pressures down the bowels and the tightening of the belt prevents their return, the weight of the cartridge box with from forty to sixty rounds of cartridges aides to force the bowels into the ingrinal rings or beneath poupart ligament and this produces Hernia.
This state is vastly increased by the fatigues of long marches and retreats, where the parts are not only relaxed but the hurried respiration and the pressure of the diaphragm all tend to aid the belt and weight of cartridges in producing one or more of the above named results.
As President of a Medical Examining Board for discharges, I have had a large number present themselves with Varicose Veins, Varicocele and Hernia, and more than one half of them, have named a march, a battle or a retreat as the time of its commencement. And my own observation has taught me that it is almost always caused by the weight of the cartridge boxes pressing upon the hips and bowels. I think I may say that thousands of men have been discharged from the service who might now be useful soldiers, but for the dispensing with the shoulder straps.
I have the honor to be, Doctor,

Very Respectfully
Your Obt Servant
Dr. A. Ball
Medical Director
Surg & 2nd Division, 12th Army Corps"

IMHO, I would find it somewhat of a stretch to link the weight of a cartridge box on the hip to hemorroids they being an inflamation of rectal/anal veins typically caused by straining to pass stools (or portal hypertension). However, they can also be caused by chronic constipation or diarrhea.
I would think that diarrhea (dysentary) might would been a more common cause, but if a doctor was looking for something to support his belief about cartridge box suspension- a hemorroid finding would be a convenient "link."
However, in way some hemorroids are a form of "vericose veins" and if the belief (real or not) that a waistbelt suspended cartridge box causes hernia, it is not a stretch for it to also cause hemorroids.

But then, I am not a CW era doctor seeking to make a point or support an opinion... ;) :)

Curt

[David Fox]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Mr. Johnson's book on Federal infantry cartridge boxes also documents that for the first months of the war, as an emergency measure, Union issue of cartridge box shoulder suspension belts was...uh...suspended.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Hallo!

This being a topic that pops up every so often in its cycle...

I would add that as reenactors and living historians our "Experimental Archeology" concept of the experience of wearting cartridge boxes by shoulder or waist belts is flawed by the lack of cartridges with bullets in them.
(Those of us adding the roughly four pounds of lead to the tins to emulate the weight and feel of a full 'box" so noted as the exception.)

Which also seques neatly into the differences between many CW soldiers with their body shapes versus many modern reenactors whose light bulb or pear body shapes change the "dyamics" of using a waistbelt at its "proper" height with a "loaded" cartridge box.
(Not necessarily a negative or a criticism, depending upon one's Mental Picture, just an observation...)

Curt

[FTrooper]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

and just to throw MY monkey wrench in this...

I was looking through some old publications and such for S&G's and found that in the 1861 Ordnance Manual there is a asterik by the description of the M1857 .58 Cartridge Box that notes that the army is planning to dispense with it in favor of two smaller boxes worn n the belt! I suspect that the 1861 "emergency" did away with this ideas as it was not a good time to experiment with new toys! Same thing happened in WW1, the M1912/14 Cavalry equipments were dropped as the older McClellen were already proven and the arsenals could produce them faster. I kind of wish I know what he M1861 belt box would have looked like! :-(

Chris Fischer
Fort McKavett
&
F-Troop

[David Fox]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

In Paul Johnson's book are a number of photos of Union infantrymen who appear to have the cartridge box suspended from the waist belt AND the shoulder belt, concurrently. See pp. 282 and 283, for instance. As one of Buford's colonels said to him in the Movie "Gettysburg", "just thought I'd mention it".

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Hallo!

I believe that was an outgrowth of the "experiment" with the 1855 rifleman's belt concept, the sliding brass "keepers" hooking to the knapsack shoulder straps to help distribute and bear the weight.

(The idea was fairly progressive at the time, and other countries would adopt a similar form. For example, the Imperial German Army went into WWI with a similar concept with two smaller ammunition pouches (one pair with three compartments each). However, when not wearing the knapsack the 120 cartridges could be 'heavy" and soldiers took to the field expedient of using their breadbag shoulder strap around their neck and clipped to the rings on the cartridge boxes.)

Curt

[David Fox]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

The waist/shoulder belt carriage of ammunition boxes was also exploited by Mann's 1864 equipments and after the War in the 1870s with the Hagner brace system.

[ThehosGendar]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Although a little late to the party, here are a few photos of boxes on belts from the 93rd N.Y., to follow up on Spence Waldron's post.

The first image is from LC-DIG-cwpb-00052, "Bealeton, Virginia. Army of the Potomac Officer's mess of Company D, 93d New York Infantry"

The second image is from LC-DIG-cwpb-00819, "Bealeton, Virginia. Officer's mess. Company F, 93d New York Volunteers Headquarters, Army of the Potomac."

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Hi,

In this article, it states that most of the CS forces in the Trans-Mississippi Theater wore their cartridge boxes on the waist belt, and not on a sling. It should also be noted, that Houston Depot cartridge box, and others, were made only to be worn on the belt. It also appears to me that CS boxes came in equal amounts of sling, belt, or sling/belt.

Accoutrements Black or russet leather. Some cartridge boxes were made by the Houston Depot (see Echoes of Glory, pg. 197) , but no replicas are being made today. Using a US pattern box suitable for your gun calibre would appear the best policy. Place the cartridge and cap boxes both on the waistbelt, as cartridge box slings were rare in the Trans-Mississippi. The most common belt type for our region was of the simple 'harness style' roller buckle variety, 1 3/4" wide belt. Make sure that the roller buckle is properly japanned.

Lazy Jacks Mess Article

Andrew

[Indianabugles]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

OK, I sucked and saw. I went Black powder clay shooting and loaded up my Cartridge box with 70 1ounce pre rolled lead rounds 4.3lb. I had mine on a sling but under the waist belt, not correct I know, but my sling is too long. Didn't think twice about it. I didn't bang on me while loading or wandering about. My friend took his belt and put 70 3/4oz in his belt, about 3.5lb in total and after the four hours of wandering about, loading, shooing and climbing (we did refill twice) neither felt any ill effect. Till the following morning. He complained of lower lumbar pain while I was fine.
Point is Reenacting or not, My Health and Safety says to me wear it!!
Ergonomics says wear a cross strap wth a pistol and having worn a Remington on a belt for several hours without one and having to have my belt extra tight I remember being most uncomfortable, and I think that is not as heavy as the lead.
As for the heat issue, yes having the cross strap does make you a tad warmer but I would say drying sweaty shirts are way better than a visit to the chiropracters. (Hence why I choose to have the cross strap on the experiment.

I would suggest to anyone to try wearing one with 4-5lb of metal in it then decide.
I Agree totally wth the Police Dude.

1oz is the approx weight of a mini bullet so 50 1 oz rounds plus powder probably comes to somewhere about the same as 70oz.

[OldState]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Some close ups from the two famous Alsop Farm pictures of CS dead wearing boxes on a waistbelt. Of particular interest is the captured federal belt and box worn by a Confederate on the waist. Also of interest are the federal buttons, heavy kearsey jacket, and "split" CS(?) canteen strap. The last pic is from the trenches near Petersburg.

[J. Donaldson]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

I have a quick question brought to mind by the photos posted in this thread. In Mr. Wickersty's #71, the soldiers have hung their traps (box on belt/no shoulder strap) from stumps and logs. If, as some have posited on this thread, the box would be worn simultaneously on sling and belt, how would the traps be hung from, well, just about anything. I would think that the arrangement with the shoulder sling afixed at an angle from the belt, would be incredibly awkward. Also, wouldn't this be incredibly awkward to put on? If we seek simplicity and ease of use, as people have always done, wouldn't the boxonbeltwithsling be a little...frustrating to use? Or am I just overthinking the banal?