Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

[PvtHull48thovi]

Hello Gentlemen. Its been a while since Ive done a thread or anything and Ive searched the forums. But my question is, How often would a confederate soldier have worn his box on his belt? And would you ever catch a federal doing the same thing perhaps on a campaign?

[Garrett Silliman]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Here you go

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13270&highlight=cartridge+box+belt

Within this thread there is another thread referenced. As far as specific CS boxes Nick Duvall just began to reproduce a box that was intended to be carried by waist belt only.

[PvtHull48thovi]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Well I already have the Confederate Dickerson box, produced after an orignial. I love it with its canvas sling painted black but doing Western Imrepssions it tends to get hot and I like the feel of no sling. My First question was answered but is there nay documentation to a federal soldier doing so. Thanks for all the help there Mr. Silliman.

[1stMaine]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Comrade,

It depends... The M1855 rifleman's equipment was designed with a wide belt for the cartridge box to be worn on. That's why, in Hardee's, he instructs the men to take a hold of their boxes before grounding or recovering arms. It's also why he instructs them to pull the box towards the front prior to loading.

Now, some units were issued this system, and worse the box in this manner, but they would have been carrying either the M1841 rifle, or the M1855 rifle, as that is the weapon the system was meant for, and the scabbard for the sword batonet was sewn onto the belt.

Likewise, during the Overland Campaign of 1864, the 15th NJ, (and 1 or 2 other egiments) were issued with Mann's Patent Accoutrements. These had a belly box worn on the belt, in the very front, andwith 2 shoulder straps to help take the weight off.

And that, right there, is the problem: weight. Unless you have actually worn a fully-loaded box on a waistbelt, you haven't a clue as to how detrimental to your back muscles it can become. The box and ammunition comes close to 5 pounds, and it tugs at the belt, requiring you to not only have a wider strong belt, but also affecting your back muscles, and eventually your neck and shoulder as well.

I am certain that some federal soldiers, at some times, wore their boxes upon their belts. Never say never.

Read through those threads listed above. They'll answer a LOT of questions for you.

Respects,

[guad42]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

I remember hearing, or reading, some discussion that as the war went on, some doctors believed that the wearing of cartridge boxes on the belt attributed to back and kidney pain experienced by some soldiers, due to the stress on the waist.

Sam Dolan

[Jimmayo]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

My First question was answered but is there nay documentation to a federal soldier doing so.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/relics.html

Look at Godfrey's box on the above page and read the caption. That is not the only one I have seen with stretched belt loops. Even though the sling buckles are still attached, they show little wear.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

I remember hearing, or reading, some discussion that as the war went on, some doctors believed that the wearing of cartridge boxes on the belt attributed to back and kidney pain experienced by some soldiers, due to the stress on the waist.

Sam Dolan

I believe that information is contained in Paul Johnsons "Civil War Cartridge Boxes of the Union Infantryman".

[PvtHull48thovi]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Thanks you guys, its sure has answered alot of my questions. I have an event coming up in De Ridder Louisiana and we are probably going federal in which case Ill where my federal stuff witht he sling. But its kinda a farb fest on the confederate side since its small. Our unit usually is the best in every aspect of uniform and camp look. I appreciate all of your answers.

[tmdreb]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Shelby,

For Trans-Miss CS, I would (and do) wear the cartridge box on the waistbelt. The documentation and surviving specimens support this quite heavily.

[mslaird]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

I remember hearing, or reading, some discussion that as the war went on, some doctors believed that the wearing of cartridge boxes on the belt attributed to back and kidney pain experienced by some soldiers, due to the stress on the waist.

Sam Dolan

I can agree with Mr. Dolan completely

I can tell you from first hand experience that carrying equipment on a belt only will definately give you some lower and mid back problems. During the six years I was a police officer my belt tipped the scale between 12 and 15 pounds depending on what pistol I carried and how big the personal radio was. All that weight rode on my hips alone. After a long shift with some OT at the end of it, I was hurtin a might fierce.

On the note of authenticity, I cannot recall seeing anyone other than riflemen wearing the box on the belt instead of on a sling in any pictures of federal infantry. I think I remember a few zouaves wearing boxes on their belts.

[Duvall Leatherwork]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Thanks for posting these questions; I think they bring up a great “Re-enactorism” that has plagued the Confederate re-enacting community for awhile now!

Before I start, this is my opinion only. There are exceptions to everything…EVERYTHING CIVIL WAR!!!!!! Can I say it again…Everything

So, your first question…

“How often would a confederate soldier have worn his box on his belt?”

Well, the best answer to the question of a confederate soldier wearing a cartridge box on his waist belt only, would probably be never. The exception to this would be a cartridge box manufactured to be worn on the belt only, meaning that the cartridge box has no box belt loops or buckles on the bottom of the box. The new box I currently have on my website is a prime example of this. Or another case would be the use of the cartridge box belt and waist belt together being used to support the weight of the cartridge box. The one key factor missing from the re-enactors cartridge box in comparison to the civil war soldier’s cartridge box is the weight 40 live rounds! Ninety-five percent of re-enactors have never carried a cartridge box full of 40 live rounds….and let me tell you, it is much heavier than 40 blank rounds! There is a reason for all the mechanics of a cartridge box…there is a reason why soldiers cut belt slits into the back of Pattern ’39 boxes…there is a reason why the Federal government riveted belt loops onto the rest of those old Pattern ’39 .69 cal round ball boxes…there is a reason why cartridge boxes have belt loops and box belt loops (and its not an option like “would you like fries with that”)…those parts are there to support the weight of that cartridge box when its fully loaded with lead and gun powder. The cartridge box, Federal or Confederate issue, was designed to be worn with the box belt and on the waist belt at the same time! There are tons of photos of soldiers wearing their cartridge boxes in this manner. There are also lots of photos of soldiers wearing their cartridge box with the box belt alone…whatever the case the box belt is still involved. Even in the most desperate of times, Confederate cartridge boxes were issued with some kind of box belt…whether it was a 2” wide leather strap, a tarred canvas box belt, or a simple narrow strap, the fact is they always used something, and the proof of this is evident on so many originals artifacts! I have tons of photos of original boxes with parts of the box belts still on them or stretched loops and missing buckles…all signs that every option of that box was being used to support its weight.


This is just one of those things I have always noticed in my tent on sutler row…I will sell every confederate cartridge box in my tent, but I always go home with a pile of confederate cartridge box belts…and I try to convince the buyers of the story above, but they just don’t hear me!







Onto the next one…

“And would you ever catch a federal doing the same thing perhaps on a campaign?”

This I would have to say absolutely not! Especially not on the campaign! The only exception to this may be may be some Zouve units, cavalry troops, etc. Remember, during the Civil War, if the Federal government issued you a cartridge box belt to be worn with the cartridge box, you wore the issued cartridge box belt on the cartridge box…period! They didn’t just throw things away for shits and giggles…they were held financially accountable for all the gear lost for no reason…sometimes even after battles when gear was lost!


In summary, look at original photos…ask me for photos of original artifacts…and do what they did…wear a cartridge box belt!

Have a great time at the event! :wink_smil

Nick Duvall
Duvall Leatherwork
314 Wyoming Ave
Kingston, PA 18704
(570)283-9297
duvall_leatherwork@hotmail.com

https://www.duvallleatherwork.com

[MarkTK36thIL]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Nick,
I wish I had my computer from back home. I have an image of federal private with his box on both his belt and sling. A 36er wrote home describing how he wore his traps and said that he wore them both as of '64 near Atlanta.

[Pat.Lewis]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Does anyone remember a quote from a US Western Theater brigadier - and I can't remember which one which simply plagues me, though I'm leaning Scribner - from his memoirs talking about how his men adjusted their kit on campaign? Regardless of who it was, he talked about the practice of somehow acquiring two cartridge boxes, wearing both on the belt with 20 rounds a piece in them. Certianly not the most PEC thing in the world, I've always just thought it was a cool "grungy Western Fed" thing to have done.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Hallo!

I would just add that some lads pour lead into the bottoms of the cartridge box tins to add the missing weight and effect of a box of cartridges instead of blanks. ;)

Curt

[ephraim_zook]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

If you have a copy of Fred Gaede's Dog Tent book, take a look at the painting on the dust jacket. It shows clearly shows members of the 142d PVI in winter camp at Culpeper, VA, boxes on belts, unslung.

regards
Ron Myzie