Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

[Lone Guard]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Page 58, of the book, "The Complete Civil War by Philip Katcher shows Private John T. Davis of Alabama wearing his cartridge box without a box belt.

As well in the same book on page 78, Private Oliver S. Daugherty Co. E 11th Indiana Inf. (a Zouave unit) is photographed at Shiloh in '62 as having no box belt. However it is hard to see if he is even wearing his box at all.

And yet again in this book, shows what I am certain is a Federal soldier on guard duty with no box belt but the box is definately there, page 110. Also interesting in this photo is that this soldier's trousers are actually above his ankles, but I digress. The date this photo was taken is not stated, but reads that it is taken at Centerville, Virginia.

Here are just a few examples; one Confederate, and two possible Union privates, wearing their boxes without any box belts.

I am sure many other photo examples are possible, these just came from ONE BOOK ALONE! I am sure if I cracked open some of my other books I would find at least 10 more examples.

[NY Pvt]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Here are a few more that I found on my computer that I’ve saved in the past.

One observation in looking back over hundreds of federal portraits I’ve saved on my computer, the majority that have their portraits taken and have their accouterments on are wearing a cartridge box slings. However, a good number are not wearing a cartridge box strap but are still wearing belts with cap pouches and bayonet scabbards that are visible. Given that the cartridge would be on the rear hip it is impossible to tell if they were wearing their boxes on their belts or simply decided not to wear it.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

"Thanks for posting these questions; I think they bring up a great “Re-enactorism” that has plagued the Confederate re-enacting community for awhile now!

Before I start, this is my opinion only. There are exceptions to everything…EVERYTHING CIVIL WAR!!!!!! Can I say it again…Everything

So, your first question…

“How often would a confederate soldier have worn his box on his belt?”

Well, the best answer to the question of a confederate soldier wearing a cartridge box on his waist belt only, would probably be never."

Nick,

As eluded by you...there are of course exceptions to everything Civil War.

While I would hardly consider anything related to the Virginia Military Institute during the American Civil War the "norm", I submit for reference a reminisce by John S. Wise about the VMI Cadets during the war.

"Then we had a plain leather cartridge-box, and a waistbelt with a harness buckle..." from The Century Magazine: The West Point of the Confederacy~John S. Wise

While searching through the VMI Order books, early on in the war there are notes about the VMI Stores having "Box-Belts" in supply, later in the war these don't appear on record as frequently as they did early on.

One Cartridge box attributed to cadet Charles Read (same Read whose Austrian Lorenze was hit with a Federal shell and is on display in the Hall of Valor). The box is a Federal 0.58 cal. Cartridge Box (stamped E. Gaylord and Co. Chicoppe Mass.) with a single cartridge tin.

While the buckles of the box are long gone, the leather attachments for the buckles are almost completely there...they are today in very good condition. The "bracing" for the box belt appears "un-worn" while the loops for the waist-belt show heavy wear.

One might conclude that since the VMI Cadets were not intended to be active combat troops, they were last on the supply lists...Waist-belts presumed satisfactory since the boxes typically would not be full of lead. Thus the rational for not having "box-belts".

It also appears that the Cadets were not issued "new" bayonet scabbards upon the issuance of their new 0.54 cal. Austrian Lorenze Rifles. The Hall of Valor Museum also has a bayonet scabbard attributed to Cadet Francis L. Smith...the scabbard is not fitted for a Lorenze bayonet as it is too small both in length and width...the scabbard appears to be of a pre-war/early war variety is constructed of black leather with the frog of blackened buff/black waxed flesh and has a brass tip. A post made by Jim Mayo about a year ago showed a group of Federal soldiers with improper fitting scabbards to their Austrian Lorenze bayonets, and I believe this to be a similar case with the New Market Cadet appearance...

Again, I stress the VMI Cadets especially ca. Spring 1864 would be far from the "Average" Confederate appearance, but I submit this as an example that there are ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS to the percieved material culture and practices.

Paul B.

[Silas]

"Handle Cartridge" - 137th PA monument at Antietam

PENNSYLVANIA AT ANTIETAM

REPORT OF THE ANTIETAM BATTLEFIELD MEMORIAL COMMISSION OF PENNSYLVANIA
AND
CEREMONIES
AT THE
DEDICATION OF THE MONUMENTS
ERECTED BY THE
COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA
TO
MARK THE POSITION OF THIRTEEN OF THE PENNSYLVANIA COMMANDS
ENGAGED tN THE BATTLE

[ ]

The people of Pennsylvania and the members of the last Legislature are to be congratulated over the selection of the members of the Antietam Monument Commission composed of General Bolton and Colonels Hawley and Bosbyshell — soldiers who won distinction on this field and who, in their capacity as members of the Commission, were untiring in their efforts in assisting the Regimental Committee in selecting suitable monuments nnd many other acts of kindness; and we, the surviving members of the One Hundred and Thirty-seventh Regiment, Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry, extend our sincere thanks to the Commission and fully appreciate the generosity of the people of Pennsylvania, through their representatives in the last Legislature, in awarding us this beautiful monument, marking our position on this battlefield.

(Signed) DAVID A. G1LLAND, Sergeant,
JOHN O'NEILL, Corporal,
ROGER MORGAN, Private,
Regimental Committee.

DESCRIPTION OF THE MONUMENT.

A very interesting and unique pose of a private soldier is shown in the granite statue selected by the Committee of the One Hundred and Thirty-seventh. It is called "Handle Cartridge," and its value is greatly enhanced by the fact that the modern breech loading rifle with its metal cartridge has entirely done away with the old-fashioned leather cartridge box, which is so faithfully shown in this statue, as well as the percussion cap box that of necessity accompanied it.

This statue represents the private soldier in the act of taking a paper cartridge from the cartridge-box attached to the belt on the right hand side, preparatory to carrying this same cartridge to his mouth, biting off its end (as shown in the statue of the Forty-fifth Infantry monument), then placing the cartridge in the muzzle of his gun.

The row of metal cartridges resting in the canvas belt and slung around the waist of the volunteer soldier of to-day is totally unlike the details of the accoutrements of the Civil War volunteer soldier. This is another illustration of the value of perpetuating the old time details, now obsolete.

The pedestal has four stones, solid and rugged in effect, clean-cut and finely proportioned, perhaps one of the most pleasing and symmetrical pedestals on the field. On two quarry-faced base stones rests hammered die stone and overhanging cap stone. On front face of die stone is the bronze inscription tablet of the regiment, as follows:

137TH PENNSYLVANIA
VOLUNTEER INFANTRY
1ST BRIGADE 2ND DIVISION 6TH CORPS
LOCATION OP REGIMENT IN ACTION 415 YARDS
NORTH OF MONUMENT
BATTLES PARTICIPATED IN
SOUTH MOUNTAIN (CRAMPTON'S PASS) MD.
ANTIETAM MD.
FITZHUGH'S CROSSING, VA.
CHANCELLORSVILLE, VA.
RECRUITED IN BLAIR BUTLER CLINTON CRAWFORD SCHUYLKILL AND WAYNE COUNTIES

On the front face of cap stone on a Gothic pediment, the well-known
Sixth Army Corps Badge, a fitting pedestal for a most interesting statue. It is 6 feet square at its base, 9 feet high, and with statue 16'-4" over all. This model is by Stanley Edwards, who thus accurately produces the Civil War veteran and his make-up.

HERE'S A LINK TO A PHOTO OF THE MONUMENT FROM THE BOOK :

http://books.google.com/books?id=UybFgNcowCEC&pg=PA204&dq=pennsylvania+regiment+%22cartridge+box%22&lr=&as_brr=1&ei=0FGyR9SnBojysgO0wvm7DQ#PPA200-IA1,M1

LINK TO A WEBPAGE WHICH INCLUDES A MODERN SNAPSHOT OF THE PHOTO : http://travel.webshots.com/photo/150...80962805sNFKiL
My computer if freaking out and I'm unable to accomplish a cut and paste of the photo url. This will have to suffice.

[tmdreb]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

What about the Baton Rouge and Houston made cartridge boxes that only have belt loops and no provision for a sling? Hard to argue against that.

It may not have been the easiest or best way to carry ammunition, but they did it, and quite often.

[roundshot]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

From the ditches in front of FT. Mahone . . .

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

From the ditches in front of FT. Mahone . . .

Bob,

Please site a reference for the image the close-up was taken from.

Thanks,

Paul

[roundshot]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Library of Congress LC-DIG-cwpb-02557

Actually, a look at the whole photo shows the casualty also wearing a canvas "S" stitch box strap. Perhaps this fellow did use the combination attachment to cross belt and waistbelt.

[DougCooper]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Good discussion!!

To sum up, there were reasons why the Army went from sling only in the pattern of 1839 to sling and belt attachment on subsequent boxes. Not having the QM specs or Paul Johnson's book handy, I would suspect it was due to one or more of the following:

1. Better weight distribution

2. More secure under exertion (running, laying down, etc)

3. Versatility when a sling is not available or for use by mounted troops, or "style" in the case of Zouaves.

4. Versatility for infantry in that pulling the box around to the front is pretty tough with it on a sling.



As for the Houston Depot boxes and other examples, the entire CS QM system was looking for simpler and cheaper - not having to produce buckles for the box and entire slings makes sense. Comfort and ease of use was trumped by economics and supply scarcity.

Army equipment is continually modified to increase wearability and versatility. It would be interesting to read all the background on these changes.

[1stMaine]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Doug,

As was referenced earlier, many doctors were complaing about the injuries over time due to the way the box was worn , as well as the other straps from canteens, haversacks, knapsacks, etc.

The Federal Army itself took up the idea of using two smaller boxes suspended upon the belt, one on each side, with a view towards better weight distribution. Todd references this in his book on American Military Equipage.

One of the solutions which DID come about from this was Colonel Mann's patent system of boxes. He designed accoutrement sets for both cavalry and infantry, and supplied about 2,000 sets for field eveluation. One of the regiments which accepted them was the 15th NJ. The men loved the system.

Basically, Mann's infantry box had a single tin with a spring beneath it, and a folding tin floor in the middle. The lower level had the cartridges stcked in it, and then the floor above it folded down and the weight of those cartridges held it in place. After the last of the top 20 rounds was expended, the floor popped up and the lower level was lifted up into place by the spring beneath it. A clever and simple system that worked well.

The box itself was issued with a belt and cap box and bayoney scabbard. The latter were of the normal pattern. The belt was of the same dimensions as the issue belt, but instead of a buckle, it simply used the "Y" shaped hook insert with the arrow points. The cartridge box itself was made with both belt loops, and 2 shoulder straps. The box was slipped onto the belt, and worn in the front, over the top of the buckle. The 2 shoulder straps went over the shoulders and connected to the belt, releiving much of the weight of the box. The entire system made for quick loading and easy carriage, and was much more comfortable than the regulation issue.

Mann also developed a detachable knapsack to accompany this system. The entire system, along with reports, etc, can be found here:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=13oDAAAAYAAJ&dq=mann's+accoutrements&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=QQ1qn-wgL0&sig=aYAWYRvTlYijC-oiPhOborJlONs#PPA8,M1

Respects,

[McKim]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Hello Gentlemen. Its been a while since Ive done a thread or anything and Ive searched the forums. But my question is, How often would a confederate soldier have worn his box on his belt? And would you ever catch a federal doing the same thing perhaps on a campaign?

Reading the 5th Virginia Infantry history;

"Terry's brigade was well armed with Enfield rifles, and the greatest deficiencies in the brigade, noted by the inspector, were in bayonet scabards and shoulder belts for cartridge boxes." This report was made in August 1864.

Again in October the inspector notes the lack of scabards and shoulder belts.

In these reports deficiencies in coats, trousers, and shoes are noted and quickly corrected but the shortage of scabards and shoulder belts continued to the war's end.

To answer your question, for a soldier in the Stonewall Brigade in the 64-65 time period I would say often. I'll assume those that say almost never have period documentation to discredit the period inspector reports from Terry's Brigade. As to other CSA Brigades, I have never done research on them.

Below is a link that provides some good info.

http://www.lazyjacks.org.uk/tranmis1.htm

[Watchdog]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

[QUOTE=PvtHull48thovi;93509]. . . My First question was answered but is there nay documentation to a federal soldier doing so.QUOTE]

I have a letter somewhere in my files concerning a soldeir in the Seventeenth Michigan Infantry who was repremanded by his company commander for wearing his cartridge box on his waist belt instead of the using the proper cartridge box belt. The soldier preferred it on his waist belt, but the commander stressed the health reasons (weight distribution and possible medical effects). He was ordered to wear his box properly or face further discipline.

[Lone Guard]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Doug,


Mann also developed a detachable knapsack to accompany this system. The entire system, along with reports, etc, can be found here:

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=13oDAAAAYAAJ&dq=mann's+accoutrements&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=QQ1qn-wgL0&sig=aYAWYRvTlYijC-oiPhOborJlONs#PPA8,M1

This is so cool!

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Hi All,

According to Paul Johnson book, one of the reasons that the belt loops were added, is that prior to the revisions on the boxes in 1857, the Musket boxes (P1839 .69 box), soldiers on certain posts & Forts were cutting belt loop slots into the back of the box. This effectively destroys the box with extended use. The Ord Sept found this out from the weekly inspections done at garrison posts and forts, as well as boxes turned in at the end of a soldier’s service, & from boxes sent in for repair.

The practice was wide spread enough that the Ordinence Dept took note and revised the boxes in 1857 to stop the practice of destroying government property, and then again in 1861 with the addition of rivets to re enforce the stitching on the belt loops. As seen in period photos, giving greater versatility to the box itself. Some Vol Regiments went by the Regular Army's regulation of wearing the box on the Box Belt, while other Volunteer outfits wore the box on the waist belt.


For the CSA, the switch was an economic one, as Doug pointed out.

As leather became in shorter and shorter supply as the war wore on. The South’s infrastructure of supply and manufacture were compromised by the US Army and Navy. Items that could be dispensed with, or substituted with painted cloth or webbing, were implemented at depots & accoutrement contractors.

The idea being basically "To eliminate and concentrate” on the items that mattered in the arming of the South’s soldiers. Leather was needed for important items like Harness for Wagons, Artillery pieces and Cavalry Tack and Saddles.

Cartridge Boxes, Cap Boxes, and Bayonet Scabbards. Even at the end some of these were made of painted cloth as supplies of leather ran out or dangerously low.

Considering 2, 64"- 66" Cartridge CS Box belt = 3, 44" Waist belts. A more needed item. Putting the Cart Box on the belt made sense economically.


All the best

Don S

[lthull3rdla]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

I wasn't exactly sure where this thread would go when my son posted it originally but is has sure been a good 'un!

are there books about accouterments out there? Anyone specializing in cartridge boxes? If so I would sure like to procure some

I spoke at length with Butch Meyers on wednesday and he is in the process of compiling such a book. Knowing Butch, it will be a great reference when it is done.

Ronnie - Shreveport