Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

[Duvall Leatherwork]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Ronnie,

The Paul Johnson book "Civil War Cartridge Boxes Of The Union Infantryman" is a great book to learn all you would want to know about Federal Cartridge boxes. Also check out the Shannon Pritchard book "Collecting the Confederacy"...It's an awesome book, full of photos of Confederate Accoutrements. Have fun with them all!!! :wink_smil

Nick Duvall
Duvall Leatherwork
314 Wyoming Ave
Kingston, PA 18704
(570)283-9297
duvall_leatherwork@hotmail.com

https://www.duvallleatherwork.com

Original Confederate Cartridge Box...

[Lone Guard]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

I wasn't exactly sure where this thread would go when my son posted it originally but is has sure been a good 'un!

are there books about accouterments out there? Anyone specializing in cartridge boxes? If so I would sure like to procure some

I spoke at length with Butch Meyers on wednesday and he is in the process of compiling such a book. Knowing Butch, it will be a great reference when it is done.

Ronnie - Shreveport

http://www.relicman.com/leather.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Civil-Cartridg.../dp/0917218795 Civil War Cartridge Boxes of the Union Infantryman

[militiaman1835]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

OH MY GOD!! On the cover of SOLDIERING IN THE ARMY OF THE TENNESSEE by Larry Daniels is a photo of a I believe Tennessee soldier with his cartridge box on belt.. Someone grab a time machine and go tell him he's not supposed to wear it that way!! Shame on him!! Jim Hensley

[MarkTK36thIL]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Nice image Nick.

I'm bringing up a dead horse, but I had to wait until I had the documentation with the image I have, so I'll post now.

Part of a letter from Walter V. Reeder, of the 36th Illinois, Company "C"

An outpost picket 5 miles South of Murfreesboro
June 2nd 1863

"I guess you never saw a soldier fitted out for a march, so I will tell you of how they are rigged when ready to start on a march, be that either long or short. Well, imagine a soldier, you have seen some of them. The first thing after the clothes comes the belt, and the cartridge box, I don't know as you ever saw a box of this description, Father can describe it to you. On the belt is the "bayonet scabbard" and cap box in addition to the box for cartridges. The two boxes are worn on the right side the bayonet scabbard on the left, as the cartridge box when full is quite heavy, so there is a strap extending over the left shoulder. which is fastened to it, and thus most, if not all the weight, is taken from the belt. I will not take up any more paper, If you don't understand from this description. Father can tell you about them for he has seen them, next to these comes the Haversack and canteen. worn on the left side. straps over the right shoulder, then comes the knapsack, filled according to the owners idea of things. Lastly comes the guns, or muskets, by the way, we have a gun called the "Enfield rifle" now, an arm far superior to the ones we had at the time of the battle (Stone's River), If we had had such guns then, we would have done much more execution, but I am digressing.
Imagine a soldier thus accoutered, and you will have some idea of how he would look when ready for marching."


Variations are interesting. The attached image was not ID'd to the 36th, but shows the cartridge box wear according to the description.

[FTrooper]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Nice image. I like how the box and belt are NOT worn under the waist-belt! Which brings up an interesting point. I have an 1840's report form the 7th US where they are ordered to cut slits in the back of the boxes to slip the waist belt through as WELL as using the shoulder belt...basically turning the cartridge box and shoulder belt into a support strap for the waist belt not unlike them Mann's cartridge boxes. With the belt loops of both styles on the back on the M1857 boxes I have always wondered if that was part of the intent or if it was common at all.

Chris Fischer
Fort McKavett State Historic Site
&
F-Troop

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Hallo!

"With the belt loops of both styles on the back on the M1857 boxes I have always wondered if that was part of the intent or if it was common at all."

"Colonel ...
That the infantry cartridge boxes could be worn with ease on the waist belt is evident from the fact that on the march out to this post all recruits & old soldiers cut the back of the box & carry it on their belt when not explicitly prohibited from so doing."

Lt. George Balch, September 25, 1855, Fort Laramie.


"Adjutant General of the Army, Colonel;
Shoulder Belts.

During the Florida War, and whenever I have since seen troops on detached service I have noticed that the soldier will invariably rid himself of his shoulder belt, if it be allowed, and attach his cartridge box to his person, by stringing it on the waist belt. I have myself had much trouble in preventing them from cutting their boxes for this purpose. A party rarely returns from detached service, that some of the boxes are not found cut on the side next [to] the person, for the purpose of passing the waist belt through. I am convinced by my own experience that a soldier will carry, with much less labor, a weight supported by the frame of the hips, than upon his shoulders. The oppression of the chest, is very great, occasioned by the heat of the shoulder belt and weight of the cartridge box, attached. We all know that we carry our swords much more comfort-ably now, than we did when the shoulder belt was worn.

Cartridge Boxes.

The shape of the cartridge box now in use, is objectionable. When it becomes necessary to move in double quick time, there is a constant flapping of the box against the person, owing to it being attached to the shoulder belt, but particularly to its shape. It is defective in having one half of the ammunition so placed, that a soldier cannot get at it readily in action; he must either get some one to pull out the magazine in the bottom of the box, and place the cartridges in the top, or he must stop, take off his box and do it for himself. I would suggest that two boxes be made, the capacity of the two being equal to [that of] the one now in use, or, in other words, each box to be made to carry twenty rounds, and each made narrow, or the width of the length of a cartridge, having loops on the side next the person for the purpose of stringing them on the waist belt. I feel convinced this will be found to be an improvement as the box will be carried with much more comfort, the ammunition will be more readily got at, as the box can be slid round in front, even if necessary – again, for ordinary garrison duty only one box need be used."

-Captain William B. Johns, 3rd Infantry, May 25, 1856, commenting on the 2nd Seminole War in Florida, 1856-1842

"Sir:
I have observed that the Infantry in marching, prefer carrying their Cartridge Boxes on the Waist Belt, and to accomplish this, they make two vertical cuts; about four inches apart, in the back leather of the box, by which means they form a loop, through which they pass the waist belt.
These cuts are of great injury to the cartridge boxes, and I have informed the officers, that when they are made, the soldier should be charged with the value of the cartridge box.
In conversing with many of the officers on the subject, they say the men find it much more comfortable and convenient to carry the cartridge box on their hips, than on their shoulders.
In the latter case, the broad cartridge box belt is drawn by the weight of the box and ammunition, tight over the back and shoulder, and, in warm weather, it makes the men uncomfortably warm.
To prevent the injury done to the cartridge boxes by cutting the back leather, and to secure to the soldier the advantages desired by carrying the box on the waist belt; I respectfully recommend, that in addition to the buckles, standing loops like those on the Rifle [box], be attached to the Infantry Cartridge boxes, so that the box may be carried on the waist or shoulder belt, at the pleasure of the officers."

-Major William Thornton, Ordnance Officer, Santa Fe, NM, September 18, 1856.

On October 31, 1856, Colonal Craig wrote to Lt, Thomas Brereton, commander at Allegheny Arsenal, to make a sample box withwasit belt loops.
On November 13, 1856 Brereton wrote back saying he was sending Craig two sample boxes with one broad loop.

However, they kicked the idea around for a bit for about six months into 1857, finally giving the go-ahead for two smaller loops for the Pattern of March 3, 1857 boxes. (again modifed for the Patern of August 18, 1857 for the .58 box).

Just an aside, the "belt" method was not universally endorsed:

Headquarters 2nd Division, 12th A. Corps
"Medical Directors Office"
Camp near Fairfax Station Va.,
January 17, 1863

J. McNuley,
Surgeon Volunteers & Medical Director,
12th Army Corps.
(Referred to General Ripley]

Sir:

Having for more than a year past been connected with the examination of disabled soldiers for discharge, I have been impressed with one very general cause of disability. I allude to the habit of wearing the cartridge boxes attached to a simple belt around the lions (sic); without shoulder straps. It is now almost a universal custom to dispense with shoulder straps. The effect is that a heavy weight is suspended from the belt, which is necessarily drawn rightfully around the loins and abdomen; this impedes the return of blood from the lower extremities and thus produces varicose veins of the legs and also varicocele; It also pressures down the bowels and the tightening of the belt prevents their return, the weight of the cartridge box with from forty to sixty rounds of cartridges aides to force the bowels into the ingrinal rings or beneath poupart ligament and this produces Hernia.
This state is vastly increased by the fatigues of long marches and retreats, where the parts are not only relaxed but the hurried respiration and the pressure of the diaphragm all tend to aid the belt and weight of cartridges in producing one or more of the above named results.
As President of a Medical Examining Board for discharges, I have had a large number present themselves with Varicose Veins, Varicocele and Hernia, and more than one half of them, have named a march, a battle or a retreat as the time of its commencement. And my own observation has taught me that it is almost always caused by the weight of the cartridge boxes pressing upon the hips and bowels. I think I may say that thousands of men have been discharged from the service who might now be useful soldiers, but for the dispensing with the shoulder straps.
I have the honor to be, Doctor,

Very Respectfully
Your Obt Servant
Dr. A. Ball
Medical Director
Surg & 2nd Division, 12th Army Corps"

Curt

[FTrooper]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

NIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE!

Curt, I owe you a beer for this one!

Chris Fischer
Fort McKavett State Historic Site
&
F-Troop

[SeargentDavis]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Hi,

It really depends on the regiment, or so ive heard. What i would do is to contact you c. o. and ask him. Sometime it could be both. Hope this helps

Seargent Davis

(really a private)

[mboyce]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

I think it also really depends on what you were issued. If you received a Baton Rouge box, you had no choice but to carry it on your belt.

[Haversack]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

I have wondered about this topic for some time,and I am glad that someone posted a thread about it.

[Duff]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Taken from Photographic History of the Civil War Volume III The Decisive Battles, Francis Trevelyan Miller, editor-in-chief. New York: the Trow Press, 1911. Page 201.

First picture: 61st New York infantry taken at Ream's station. A few men are not wearing waist belts, but at least three of them are and do not have cardridge box slings. One man does appear to be wearing both a belt and sling indicating that the other men wearing the belts may be wearing the boxes on the belts.

Second picture: Company G 61st New York taken at Falmouth VA in March 1863. The men are wearing full uniform, but a few don not have slings. This strongly indicates that they are in fact wearing them on their belts.

[1st Maine Trooper]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

As someone, Nick Duvall I think, stated, there is nothing that can be said with absolute certainty. Soldiers in the field will do what they think is best and what they can get away with. That maxim was as true then as it is now. It is interesting to ponder the intent of the equipment designers for sure and all too often we are left to divine their intentions.

With the cartridge box suspension method it appears that is the case. In my opinin, the Army, then as now, did not leave things up to the men. Equipment was carefully designed with an intended use in mind. For the cartridge box, why would the Army go the the expense of having boxes fitted with both means of carriage? I dont believe it was an either or circumstace and left up to the end user. Mssr. Smith has hypothesized (correctly IMO) that the South was forced for economic reasons to alter designs and materials used for construction. That was a concession made of neccessity rather than a carefully thought out design change.
a
This speaks nothing as to the photographic evidence of soldiers wearing their boxes. Even that is up for interpretaion. It was common for photos to be staged. If we see a photo of an armed infantryman with accoutrements, we assume they are his, that he brought them with him to the studio. How can we know if this is actually the case?

The best evidence to use is the written word. Letters from the men home, notations on muster sheets, ordnance returns and regimental order books all provide insights into what the men were actually doing and are for more reliable. In this instance there is evidence of both. We can say for certainty that it was carried both ways by troops in all armies based upon the written records.


Anyone want to venture a guess as to why carbine boxes have means to carry both ways?

Dave Myrick

[August77]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

This is definitely an interesting thread. I think Mr. Myrick has very good points. I also think we need to be careful with pictures. As in Mr. Duffney's pictures above, just because we don't see cartridge box straps is it safe to assume they are on the waist belt? Perhaps they are not wearing cartridge boxes at all.

I think it did come down to what the soldier was comfortable with. As with every other piece of equipment that was designed to certain specifications for proper use, it was most likely manipulated in some way for maximum comfort by the end user.

Here's a picture of an original 1839 box that had belt loops added. Notice the top rivets are through the existing strap loops making it impossible to pass a shoulder strap through. This box could only be worn on the belt.

[Duff]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

I blew up some of the men who were not wearing slings.

[Longbranch 1]

Re: Cartridge Boxes worn on the belt???

Good discussion!!

To sum up, there were reasons why the Army went from sling only in the pattern of 1839 to sling and belt attachment on subsequent boxes. Not having the QM specs or Paul Johnson's book handy, I would suspect it was due to one or more of the following:

1. Better weight distribution

2. More secure under exertion (running, laying down, etc)

3. Versatility when a sling is not available or for use by mounted troops, or "style" in the case of Zouaves.

4. Versatility for infantry in that pulling the box around to the front is pretty tough with it on a sling.



As for the Houston Depot boxes and other examples, the entire CS QM system was looking for simpler and cheaper - not having to produce buckles for the box and entire slings makes sense. Comfort and ease of use was trumped by economics and supply scarcity.

Army equipment is continually modified to increase wearability and versatility. It would be interesting to read all the background on these changes.

Just wondering if by points 1. and 2., it might be inferred that the cartridge box was to be supported by both belt and sling simultaneously? Not an either/or situation.

I just tried this , and it seems to work rather well. The box neither flops around nor moves front to back on the hip. With the added benefit of keeping the cap box relatively correctly positioned. Also diminishes a lot of the fumbling loading and firing from the prone position, not to mention it helps alleviate " droopy 'couter " syndrome.

What say you sirs, to the historical correctness of wearing boxes in this manner?

Trying to do it right,
Kevin Ellis,
26th NC