English Army Cloth Frock Coats

[Andrew Kasmar]

Dear Sirs:

Did the South every make infantry frock coats out of English Army cloth, or were there only shell jackets made of English army cloth.


Andrew Kasmar

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: English Army Cloth Frock Coats

I know of several officers frocks made of this cloth, but no enlisted frocks. ...it doesn't mean they didn't exist... just than I've never heard of any.

[27thNCdrummer]

Re: English Army Cloth Frock Coats

I echo what John said.

Seeing that English Army Cloth didn't come into the picture until the end of 63 at the earliest, I would think it highly unlikely that there would be any enlisted frocks made out of the material.

[OldKingCrow]

Re: English Army Cloth Frock Coats

I echo what John said.

Seeing that English Army Cloth didn't come into the picture until the end of 63 at the earliest.

Can you support that ? Honestly not crackin yer stones...just an ole reb hungry for a/the definitive source on this.

Thanks in advance.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: English Army Cloth Frock Coats

Here is a good article/thread on the topic:

http://authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9565

So, if I am reading this thing correctly, it would appear that the cloth arrived in large quantities beginning in the 3rd or 4th quarter of 1863. However, many items were being imported prior to that time, including cloth... however, how much was *this* kind of cloth, I cannot tell from a fast "zip" through the article and thread.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: English Army Cloth Frock Coats

Hello,


Thank You.


Andrew Kasmar

[27thNCdrummer]

Re: English Army Cloth Frock Coats

Well the fact that federals do not mention confederates looking like them until late 1863 supports this.

There were some shipments imported at earlier times but the majority didn't come into service until '63.

[yanksaintgood]

Re: English Army Cloth Frock Coats

I actually saw at a Military Show in Louisville Kentucky last weekend an original enlisted Kersey frock coat with North Carolina State buttons. From what I recall there were 7 buttons on the coat.
Patrick Abbey

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: English Army Cloth Frock Coats

Hi,

Do you know when this frock coat was issued Mr. Abbey?

Andrew Kasmar

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: English Army Cloth Frock Coats

Hallo!

For the sake of ease...

"In December 1862 Major J B Ferguson was sent to England to become the Quatermaster Departments first foreign agent.The Sixty year old Ferguson’s initial orders were to buy as many blankets, shoes and woollens as quickly as possible.

According to surviving records the first shipment of this cloth was purchased by Ferguson, in Manchester – where he now had his base - in April 1863.This was purchased according to Ferguson “from sixteen Yorkshire woollen mills”. And in a letter written by C.S. Secretary of War James A Seddon to CJ McRae, dated July 4th 1864. Seddon informed McRae that Maj Ferguson could supply cloth from “Lancastershire (sic) ( Lancashire) and Yorkshire”.

It was widely used by the British Army for uniform trousers and greatcoats hence the term it became to be known as in Richmond "English Army cloth".

The first major shipments of this cloth, arrived at the warehouses in Richmond on July 9th 1863. Records show that this shipment consisted of 18 bales totaling 3,336 yards of 1 1/2 yard wide blue grey kersey.
However small amounts of this cloth did arrive prior to this date, in a letter written in April 1863 by Q.M. Major Richard Waller of the Richmond Dept mentions the purchase of English cloth "A small portion of which has now arrived". Major Caleb Huse, whilst engaged in purchasing goods for th QM Dept in 1861 –62, also imported large amounts of cloth supplied by S Isaac Campbell & Co of London.

In a report by Josiah Gorgas C.S Chief of Ordnance entitled. “Abstract of Summary of Supplies purchased and shipped by Maj Caleb Huse Dated Feb 3rd 1863, mentions that 78,520 yards of Cloth had been received, some of which we now know was the Blue Grey “English Army Cloth”

So what did the colour look like? Various descriptions have come to light one states "it was a variably toned blue grey wool with a dark hue".
Another went on "The shade of cloth varied from a dark grey to a blue grey, to a shade that looked very much like Dark Blue.

When examined closely the material is variably toned, but when viewed under magnification the wool is revealed to be a combination of both dark blue, and light to medium grey fibres.

The wool was apparently dyed in two colours and then carded together before spinning into yarn.

As synthetic dyes came into use in England at the time of the Civil War, it is likely they were used in the making of this cloth. Another pointer to the fact synthetic dyes were used is the fact that surviving jackets show very little signs of fading. Evidence of good solid English synthetic dyes.

Records indicate that the Quartermaster's Department in Richmond did not begin to receive any large quantities of the Blue Grey kersey until October 1863. By the spring and summer of 1864 the amounts running the blockade were huge, for example on June 10th 1864 4,574 yards of "English Army Cloth" came in, followed by 4,983 on June 13th, 3 days later 2,983 more came in, so that in one week the Richmond Depot received 12,540 yards of blue grey "English Army Cloth". '

Curt

[tmdreb]

Re: English Army Cloth Frock Coats

We ought to have an FAQ topic on English Army cloth.

Here's another good thread on the subject: http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...ead.php?t=2106

After reading that, you'll notice that it's best to think earlier, rather than later, in regards to this cloth. For those of you who think it was only available in small quantities prior to late 1863, check out this part of a letter dated August 8, 1862 from San Antonio:

In this respect I may mention that there
are now in this department, destined for the army east of the Missis-
sippi, some 500 bales (400 yards each) of gray cloth, in care of Captain
Sharkey, quartermaster, C. S. Army. In view of the great difficulty in
transportation across the Mississippi, I have directed Captain Sharkey
to store the cloth at Houston and to proceed to Richmond’ for further
orders in regard thereto. Should it be found impossible to place the
cloth across the river, it might be advisable to appropriate a portion of
it to the use of the troops on this side.

As far as enlisted frocks made of this cloth, the Fred Adolphus article mentioned in one of the other threads on this topic mentions that the 1st TX Heavy Artillery had frock coats made up at the Houston Depot, which was using blue gray kersey for uniforms at this time. I think there's an image somewhere that would support the idea of a red-trimmed frock made of blue gray kersey.

For those of you who have more knowledge of Grisamore's book than I, what cut were the uniforms the tailor made from the cadet gray cloth in March of 1863?

[Gallo de Cielo]

Re: English Army Cloth Frock Coats

As the good Mr. Graf has pointed out, it turns out there was a war being fought apart from that waged by Marse Lee on the Eastern crust of our fine nation. So just because the boys in Old Virginy may not have been sporting English cloth garments until late in '63 does not mean that the fighting men in other quarters weren't.

Perhaps doing some searches or just browsing through old pages before posting a few of these questions might help...

Regards,

[Mississippian]

Re: English Army Cloth Frock Coats

We know that enough English cloth had arrived in time to be made into jackets and trousers for Longstreet's corps before they were sent out west in Sept of '63. Braggs soldiers and the Federals remarked at how different the Eastern Confederate uniform was from Braggs ragged troops. Looking at the info on this thread. It seems to me that the 3,336 yd's of cloth that arrived on July 9th '63 in Richmond was the cloth that was used to outfit Longstreet.

That gives us about 2 months from the time that the cloth arrived in Richmond to the time finished uniforms were given out to Longstreets men on the way to Chickamauga.

Will MacDonald

[Iron Scout]

Re: English Army Cloth Frock Coats

Good grief,

Lot's of good information on this thread but a lot of really, really bad assumptions. Be very careful in making iron-clad statements based on Federal accounts. Come to the SCCRR&M and view the McRae Papers as they will certainly open your eyes to the use of kersey a lot earlier than 1863.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: English Army Cloth Frock Coats

Hi,


I agree that English Army cloth was used in some amounts in Richmond Depot by May of 1863 and some before this date, and began heavy use by mid 1863 at this depot. I also know that some amount of English army cloth was sent to some Texas Depots such as Houston Depot to produce jackets in 1862. Thank you all for the information.


Andrew Kasmar

4th Missouri Company E