Ration Labels Help, Part #2

[FTrooper]

OK Ladies and Gents,

A couple of you were very helpful with my request for canned milk lables and I greatly appreciate your help (especially now, keep reading).

We have here a primary resource from 1868 that the soldiers in the field were issued for rations "canned beans, canned milk (told you) and hardtack, 3 to 4 in a box"

OK, so now my new exhibit needs your help again. I am looking for a period canned beans lable for one thing (we are also looking for "US" flour sacks still) AND does anyone know anything about period "hardtack boxes???" Apparently they hold 3 or 4 crackers per box!

ANY assistance will be appreciated.

Most Sincerely,

Chris Fischer
Curator/Interpreter
Fort McKavett SHS

[1stMaine]

Re: Ration Labels Help, Part #2

Chris,


I'll stack my several references against your single reference regarding field rations for soldiers :)

Hardtack or Pilot Crackers were packed in noxes or barels that held 50 lbs per box. The "ossie" ration, per regulation, was 1ln of hardbread a day, or about 12 crackers. The issue was most often doled out by simply taking off the top of the box and kletting the soldiers take what they wanted, most not wanting a full 12 crackers, and many only 1 or 2. That was the case in a more stable enbironment.

In the field, rations were "normally" issued 3 days worth at a time, the soldier using being instructed to cook them and then store them in his haversack. Affitional issue rations included coffe, sugar and salt pork, beef, or fresh beef when available.

Canned milk was available, but it is not listed in the tables of rations, and would only have been available to the soldier through commercial purchase from the sutler, sent from home, etc.

AS to canned beans, the army issued beans in dried form and let the men cook them. There was no possible way the army was going to transport canned beans to the field, or for anywhere for that matter, simply due to the weight involved. The cost to so so would have been tremendous. Were canned beans available? Why yes, yes they were, Burnham and Morril, who would later become B&M baked beans both were contractors to the army for dried beans of various denominations. They also sold cooked beans both canned and bottled, but for a soldier to acquire them he would, ahain, have had to purchase them from some source.

Ig you want a good description of actual ration issues to individuals, get ahold of "Hardtack & Coffee" by Billings. He talks about the typical issue and how it was doled out and supercised, etc.

Box lunches were simply not done for the troops. Picnics by civilians, why yes! Yes indeed! Soldiers had a bag lunch. It was carried on the right should and rested upon their lefy hip. :)

[Dan Munson]

Re: Ration Labels Help, Part #2

Hello!

I believe most of us would be fairly puzzled about references to a hardtack "box" that held only 3 or 4 crackers!!! I presume such a "box" would be something made of pasteboard or the like. Assuming I worked the "attachment" thingy correctly, you will see attached a photo of a "hardtack box" as most of us know it. The thing was meant to hold 50 lbs. (net weight) of hard bread (hardtack), and was in boxes like these that army hard bread was sent to Federal troops in the field. Inside the box, the crackers were packed singly in organized rows and layers. Although there was usually a liner of some sort inside the box, to improve waterproofing, I have never heard of any smaller packaging being used to sub-divide the crackers inside. Frankly with a standard daily ration being about 10-12 crackers (cracker size varied slightly and the issue was by actual weight, not by a set number of crackers), I can't imagine what a pack of only 3 or 4 crackers would be used for.

[Brian Baird]

Re: Ration Labels Help, Part #2

Chris,
What time period are you using for Ft. McKravett? From your website it states the Fort was abandoned in 1859 and reoccupied in 1868.
Brian Baird

[FTrooper]

Re: Ration Labels Help, Part #2

Tim,

I actually have several references to canned rations...but I also admit that they tend to be in reference to the frontier army (both pre-war and post war). Especially post war there are alot of references to commercial items, such as canned beans and I am assuming the "hard tack" issued was a commercial brand sold to travellers (no where does it seem these are governement items), and I agree with Dan that they "box" for the hardtack was probably a pasteboard packaging.

and not to be argumentative Tim, but "regulations" are borderline worthless. Just because its not in the regs doesn't mean it didn't exist or happen, and OFTEN things are in the regs that never really exisited! So primamry accounts have alot more merti, as do archealogical finds. Canned fruit and veggies are not regulation, but their cans are found at every campsite of the ACW and we KNOW soldiers were often issued items not per reg. Such as a Company of recruits moving to west Texas being issued canned beans, canned milk, and packages of hardtack. I also have where alot of fresh beef was issued in place of Salt-Pork at posts in Texas and Oklahoma and a letter from the QM at Fort Worth in 1853 stating that he has substituted cornmeal for flour and black-eyed peas for beans as they are easier to get. There are also requisitions to non-government food stuff being bought for issue on campiagn such as a strange thing called "meat-Biscuit". And I have Hard Tack and Coffee, my question Tim was does anyone have a period canned bean lable for the display of the soldiers marching here in 1868 (without baggage and without cooking gear...thus canned beans and milk, not unlike C-Rations is a very acceptable alternative for patrol), not what the common AOP ration was.

By the way, Billings also says that the wedge tents were 6x6 and that is inncorrect, there is no ONE perfect sopurce and every soldier, pre-war/AOP/AOT/Trans-Miss/Post War in Montana, Post War in Texas are all going to have different stories and alot will revolve around what was available to them in that area and that time.

Again, not trying to be argumentative or call you a liar, but I also don't think you being open minded, nor did you answer my queary. I do not come to this forum to argue that I know more than you or vice versa and I would hope this does not turn into that as I am sure you have done quite a bit of research, but give me my due, so have I and I would bet I have just as many references to non-regulation rations as you have to regulation ones.

If you have access to a Burnham and Morril lable I would be greatly appreciative...and I DO thank you very much for giving me that information, it gives me a starting point!

Most Respectfully,

Chris Fischer
Fort McKavett SHS
&
F-Troop

[Brian Baird]

Re: Ration Labels Help, Part #2

Chris,
I suggest you contact the Quartermaster Museum at Ft Lee, Va. I know they have some canned goods on display and might have some information. If been several years since I've been to the museum but in the past they have been very helpful.
Brian Baird

[FTrooper]

Fort McKavett

Brian,

Yes, we were garrisoned from 1852-1859 and again from 1868-1883.

The Company E, 1st Texas Mounted Rifles were here in the winter of 1861-1862 and the POW's from the 8th Infantry were also here for a short time in 1861.

BTW, are you the same Brian Baird that used to make WW1 stuff and was I met at Pea Ridge in 1995 while he was on a 20pdr Parrot?

Most Sincerely,

Chris Fischer
Fort McKavett SHS
&
F-Troop

[Brian Baird]

Re: Ration Labels Help, Part #2

Chris,
Yes I made WWI stuff. I use to own a 10 pdr parrott not a 20 pdr.
Now you're going back a few years!
Brian Baird

[FTrooper]

Re: Ration Labels Help, Part #2

Brain,

Good to catch up with you again! Hope all is well.

Currently part of my job is going to be to develope the "Living History Interpretation" for the site and the Friends Group, so as of yet we don't have a specfic focus. Right now I am trying to redo the exhibits and such, thus why I want these cans!

Give me a buzz at:

FortMcKavettDragoon@yahoo.com sometime, or anyone else for that matter!

Chris Fischer
Fort McKavett SHS
&
F-Troop

[Hank Trent]

Re: Ration Labels Help, Part #2

We have here a primary resource from 1868 that the soldiers in the field were issued for rations "canned beans, canned milk (told you) and hardtack, 3 to 4 in a box"

I initially read it to mean 3 to 4 rations, rather than 3 to 4 pieces of hardtack, in a box. Still not very big boxes, but they'd be somewhere in the ten-pound range I'd guess--light enough to carry on foot but large enough to be efficient. Three or four rations might be reasonable for either a mess of 3-4 men, or 3-4 days rations for one man.

Don't know if there's anything further that would support it being interpreted that way.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[FTrooper]

Well, let's see

Let's see if I can clear up any misunderstandings and please remember that this a small group of frontier soldier, not regiments! This is from a "tarnscribed account of Willian Branch, Pvt. 25th infantry (and I am sorry it was 1870, not 1868, that was a different reference) recounting his march from Galveston to Fort Duncan, also note it was written down just as he spoke it (Branch couldn't write).

"...We goes 15 miles ev'ry day. we got no tents, night come, we unrolls de blankets and sleeps under de trees, sometimes under de brush. For rations we got canned beans, milk, and hardtack. De hard tacks is 3 or 4 in a box, we wets 'em and cooks 'em in a skillet. We gits meat purty often. When we camps for de night de captain say, "You'all kin go huntin"...and he goes on to mention deer and rabbits.

As mentioned earlier, I do believe these items to be commercial in nature, probably intended for overland travellers, not the regular government issue (again I have seen lots of references in the frontier army, pre & post civil war to the acquisition of such items).

I HOPE this clears up the matter a LITTLE, but I also know its going to intrigue quite a few more, this is obvious NOT Hardtack issued in bulk from the large "Union Mechanical...blah blah blah", crates that we all know and love.

Any ideas then?

Chris Fischer
Fort McKavett SHS
&
F-Troop

[1stMaine]

Re: Ration Labels Help, Part #2

Comrade,

You would be well served to contact these fellows, if you have not done so already. There are no finer group of post-war LH folks than these.

http://www.nouveauwest.com/GMMACS.htm

[John Pellarin]

Re: Ration Labels Help, Part #2

Chris,

You might try to contact the NPS staff at Fort Larned in Kansas. Try talking to George Elmore. He is very knowledgeable about the early Indian Wars period in the west. I suspect with the rapid reduction of the size of the army, the logistical problems of supplying the troops on the frontier might have made it necessary to revert to these type of rations and in these small quantities.

John Pellarin

[FTrooper]

Re: Ration Labels Help, Part #2

Thanks Gents!

I forgot about Ft. Larned, and they have been very proactive in uncovering the period's material culture. I've been getting quite a bit of help from Ft. Davis. The problems is that most of the stuff the NPS sites use came from Ordnance Park, O'De'a & Company (Mike Montgomery), and F. Burgess (Hank Kluin)...all defunct firms I am sad to say! :cry_smile

Thanks Tim, the GMMCS is coming here in Sept. I am very much hoping to tap their brains and resources!

Thanks Guys!

Chris Fischer
Fort McKavett State Historic Site
&
F-Troop

[MissouriStateGuard]

Re: Ration Labels Help, Part #2

Hello Chris,

Try giving John Sutton a call- he's GMMCS & also the chief ranger at Wilson's Creek National Battlefield. Before that he was the chief ranger at Fort Davis. He can be reached at (417) 732-2662.

Good luck,

Kip