Re-issue?

[Vuhginyuh]

There is a great post concerning the use of battle-field pick-ups and looted
materials.

Did either side have a system in place to collect discarded, lost or damaged firearms (and other goods, repair them if needed) and re-issue them?

I'm sure someone has addressed it before but I have never thought of it.

[1stMaine]

Re: Re-issue?

Comrade,
In the book "The Wartime papers of Robert E. Lee", there are several references to CS units/parties sent out to scour the battlefield to pick up arms and equipments for refurbishing and reissue. it was a common practice of both sides.
Respects,

[markj]

Re: Re-issue?

Hi,

Indeed, possibly the largest source of supply to Confederate troops was...the Union Army. A good example of this can be found in a post-Chickamauga inventory report by Confederate QM's. Something like 7,000 rifles alone were collected in the immediate aftermath of the battle. This report can be found in the "Official Records." If you can't find it, let me know and I'll get it to you.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Pharr]

Re: Re-issue?

Always assuming you held the field afterwards so you could glean it for discarded weapons.

The answer to the question is "yes." What comes to mind immediately is the reports following Secessionville (16 June 1862). If you'll look it up in Vol. XIV of the OR, you'll even find a nice report detail the types of weapons, working and broken but repairable, etc.

Cory Pharr
Chas.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Re-issue?

Yes, I understand all this and greatly appreciate your input.
Was there an official system in place that regulated this?
The quartermaster? The arsenals?

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Re-issue?

[QUOTE=Pharr]Always assuming you held the field afterwards so you could glean it for discarded weapons.

The answer to the question is "yes." What comes to mind immediately is the reports following Secessionville (16 June 1862). If you'll look it up in Vol. XIV of the OR, you'll even find a nice report detail the types of weapons, working and broken but repairable, etc.

Cory Pharr
Chas.[/QUOTE

We posted at the same time, Thank you Cory.

[Minieball577]

Re: Re-issue?

[QUOTE=Vuhginyuh]

The answer to the question is "yes." What comes to mind immediately is the reports following Secessionville (16 June 1862). If you'll look it up in Vol. XIV of the OR, you'll even find a nice report detail the types of weapons, working and broken but repairable, etc.

4,000 arms from the Richmond battlefields, 7 days battles were sent to Macon Arsenal, in Georgia, to be repaired. Among them were many 1842 muskets, that wer then altered to short infantry arms, and some shortened even fruther to carbines. (This paraphrase is from Murphey and Madaus, Confederate Rifles and Muskets)

Also, in Paul Davies amazing work on the Richmond armory, it notes many 1842 muskets recovered from battlefields that were repaired by being shortened for cavalry use. It also mentions many instance of 1861 U.S. Rifle-muskets being repaired in several ways from the same sources. (This from Paul Davies, C.S. Armory Richmond.)

It is pretty certain then, since these arms were repaired battlefield recoveries that arms that did not need repair were also found, and then reissued.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Re-issue?

4,000 arms from the Richmond battlefields, 7 days battles were sent to Macon Arsenal, in Georgia, to be repaired. Among them were many 1842 muskets, that wer then altered to short infantry arms, and some shortened even fruther to carbines. (This paraphrase is from Murphey and Madaus, Confederate Rifles and Muskets)

Also, in Paul Davies amazing work on the Richmond armory, it notes many 1842 muskets recovered from battlefields that were repaired by being shortened for cavalry use. It also mentions many instance of 1861 U.S. Rifle-muskets being repaired in several ways from the same sources. (This from Paul Davies, C.S. Armory Richmond.)

It is pretty certain then, since these arms were repaired battlefield recoveries that arms that did not need repair were also found, and then reissued.

Good stuff, thanks.

[markj]

Re: Re-issue?

Hi,

Here's something else you might be interested to see: Check out the Library of Congress ".tiff" version of "Dead Confederate Near Mrs. Alsop's House" (this the famous image showing a dead rebel propped up against some rails at "The Angle"). Zoom in on his belt buckle and you will quickly see it is a standard Federal buckle turned upside down. The top part of what appears to be a Pattern of 1858 canteen (minus cover) is also visible. I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut these items were either battlefield pickups or were "recycled" to the man through his friendly neighborhood QM.

Alas, in this case, it appears the Union Army managed to get them back....

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Jack Booda]

Re: Re-issue?

More Union recycling. From Memoirs of U.S. Grant:

"As Vicksburg 31,600 prisoners were surrendered, together with about 60,000 muskets and a large amount of ammunition. Up to this time our troops at the West had been limited to the old U.S. flintlock muskets changed into percussion... The enemy had generally new arms which had run the blockade and were of uniform caliber. After the surrender I authorized all colonels whose regiments were armed with inferior muskets, to place them in the stack of captured arms and replace them with the latter. A large number of arms turned in to the Ordance Department as captured, were thus arms that had really been used by the Union army in the capture of Vicksburg."

BTW, remember Grant had been a Quartermaster officer early in his career. Thus he knew how to avoid redtape! :)

[John E. Tobey]

Re: Re-issue?

Want to know the system? Get ready to snooze....

At least in one instance, the "system" went as follows:

According to the papers of Capt. Lewis H. Fassett, Co. "I", 64th NY, his company "took up" the following items from the battlefield of Gettysburg:

5 Springfield Rifle Muskets
10 Austrian Rifle Muskets Cal. .54
15 Bayonet scabbards
15 cap pouches
15 cartridge boxes
2 cartridge box plates
5 cartridge box belts
11 gun slings
14 waist belt plates, privates
14 waist belts, privates
11 cone wrenches & screw drivers
1 spring vice
3 wipers
520 elongated ball cartridges cal. .54
520 percussion caps

All of this was turned over to Lt. Charles Soules (?) of the same regiment, and Captain Fassett was given a "Certified Invoice" for the same. He also had to fill out an special, additional copy of Form No. 1-(a) "Quarterly Return of Ordnance and Ordnance Stores" for the items gleaned from the battlefield. Interestingly, these items do NOT show up on the regular copy he normally provided for the quarter that encompassed the battle.

A day or two later, the company received some of the same articles back from the same Lt. Soules, including 2 of the Springfields. These items DO show up on Fassett's quarterly report of Ordnance stores, as items being issued in the normal fashion. Of the balance, some of it was issued to other companies in the same regiment, and some of it was turned in to a "Captain Doud" who was not a member of the 64th NY, and probably someone "higher up" the ordnance food chain, probably at brigade or division. Whatever wasn't needed and issued in the brigade/division/corps/army was turned in to Washington and issued at a later date, I guess.

John Tobey

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Re-issue?

Want to know the system? Get ready to snooze....

At least in one instance, the "system" went as follows:

According to the papers of Capt. Lewis H. Fassett, Co. "I", 64th NY, his company "took up" the following items from the battlefield of Gettysburg:

5 Springfield Rifle Muskets
10 Austrian Rifle Muskets Cal. .54
15 Bayonet scabbards
15 cap pouches
15 cartridge boxes
2 cartridge box plates
5 cartridge box belts
11 gun slings
14 waist belt plates, privates
14 waist belts, privates
11 cone wrenches & screw drivers
1 spring vice
3 wipers
520 elongated ball cartridges cal. .54
520 percussion caps

All of this was turned over to Lt. Charles Soules (?) of the same regiment, and Captain Fassett was given a "Certified Invoice" for the same. He also had to fill out an special, additional copy of Form No. 1-(a) "Quarterly Return of Ordnance and Ordnance Stores" for the items gleaned from the battlefield. Interestingly, these items do NOT show up on the regular copy he normally provided for the quarter that encompassed the battle.

A day or two later, the company received some of the same articles back from the same Lt. Soules, including 2 of the Springfields. These items DO show up on Fassett's quarterly report of Ordnance stores, as items being issued in the normal fashion. Of the balance, some of it was issued to other companies in the same regiment, and some of it was turned in to a "Captain Doud" who was not a member of the 64th NY, and probably someone "higher up" the ordnance food chain, probably at brigade or division. Whatever wasn't needed and issued in the brigade/division/corps/army was turned in to Washington and issued at a later date, I guess.

John Tobey

Outstanding!

[Dignann]

Re: Re-issue?

Here is some interesting information I came across in the Compiled Service Record (CSR) of Lieutenant Elisha H. Boyd, Ordnance Officer for Brigadier General William Terry. CSR on microfilm at the National Archives - M331, Roll 29. Information replicated from my notes.

Invoice of Ordnance and Ordnance Stores Turned Over
June 7, 1864
by Lieut. E.H. Boyd
Turned over to: Capt. C.P. Estill (O.O. Gordon's Division)
106 Guns .58 Cal.
271 Cartridge Boxes
240 Cartirdge Box Belts
97 Bayonet Scabbards
227 Cap Pouches
6 Knapsacks
79 Canteens
3711 Rds Ammunition Cal. 58
18 Ammunition Boxes
1 Ammunition Chest


Five days later, Boyd turned in the following requistion.

June 12, 1864
Requisitioned by Lieut. E.H. Boyd
216 Guns Cal. .58
370 Cartridge Boxes
365 Cartridge Box Belts
154 Bayonet Scabbards
267 Cap Pouches
120 Knapsacks
161 Haversacks
212 Canteens
7758 Rds Ammunition
2 Packing Boxes
50 Blank Requisition
500 Musket Caps
Received from Capt. C.P. Estill

Ok, so what was going on here? There are other invoices, for both requisitioned and turned over goods, in Boyd's CSR for this time period. Keep in mind, this is taking place during an active campaign, in fact this is during the two weeks the armies were facing each other at Cold Harbor.

Could it be that Boyd was turning in items that his men have picked up off the field? Following the Wilderness, Spotsylvania Court House and North Anna, Lee's army retained control of the battlefields. If Boyd was turning in captured gear, it's interesting that he turned around five days later only to requistion the same items back.

Or was he turning in worn, spent, or unserviceable equipment and requistioning replacement stores? Any thoughts?

Eric

[dusty27]

Re: Re-issue?

"Invoice of Ordnance and Ordnance Stores Turned Over
June 7, 1864
by Lieut. E.H. Boyd
Turned over to: Capt. C.P. Estill (O.O. Gordon's Division)
....3711 Rds Ammunition Cal. 58
18 Ammunition Boxes
1 Ammunition Chest .....

Or was he turning in worn, spent, or unserviceable equipment and requistioning replacement stores? Any thoughts?"

Eric,

My question would be why would the LT turn in ammunition and boxes if they weren't battlefield pickups? Was there such thing as "bad" ammunition? Wet, maybe, but why turn it in?

Five days could be a long time on campaign. Maybe he is like me and can't remember what he did yesterday. :D I'm sure with all the paperwork involved and regulations, officers would consider the two "transactions" separate.

[Bill]

Re: Re-issue?

[QUOTE=Jack Booda]More Union recycling. From Memoirs of U.S. Grant:

"After the surrender I authorized all colonels whose regiments were armed with inferior muskets, to place them in the stack of captured arms and replace them with the latter. A large number of arms turned in to the Ordance Department as captured, were thus arms that had really been used by the Union army in the capture of Vicksburg."

I remember reading about piles of muskets that were left rusting on the Chancellorsville battlefield in the summer of 1863. This may have been the same situation Grant reported on at Vicksburg. Lee had reported that after Chancellorsville, the ANV was almost completly supplied with modern weapons. My bet is that the obsolete weapons were swapped off right after the battle.