corporal stripes

[Jake Nott]

On page 131 of the Confederate Echoes of Glory there is a picture of a CPL from the 1st Georgia Infantry. There is a diamond above the stripes, any ideas what it is for?

[flattop32355]

Re: corporal stripes

First Corporal?

Who knows, especially if it's early war, or a pre-war militia unit.

[Secesh]

Re: corporal stripes

My guess would be 1st Corporal...

[Jake Nott]

Re: corporal stripes

That is what I was thinking as well. I have just never seen it done like that before, it must be a Militia or Georgia thing?

[Lee Ragan]

Re: corporal stripes

Maybe he was a 1st Corporal and figured that since the 1st Sergeant wore a diamond above his chevrons, a 1st Corporal was entitled to do the same! Weird rank chevrons in pre-war militia outfits were quite common and actually continued well after the war.
Just a guess on my part.

[FTrooper]

Re: corporal stripes

While studying the 1850's I have run across references to "Lance Corporals" during the official inspections of Texas! This is a rank that does not OFFICIALLY appear until 1891 in the US Army! They are also mentioned in a reference from the 1820's and their insignia was a single white wool star on their sleeves (but this predates the adoption of the English chevron system we all know and love).

Which bring me to another question? How common is the use of a single stripe "Lance Cpl. Chevron" in the 1860's and even though there are alot of pictures of single chevrons, are there ANY pictures of REGULARS doing it?

Most Sincerely,

Chris Fischer
Fort McKavett State Historic Site
&
F-Troop

[RN_PAC]

Re: corporal stripes

Maybe someone can help me out with this, as this question had come up either on this, or another forum previously. Having given that disclaimer, let me just admit that what I write here is drawn purely from vague memory, and I may be way off...

I seem to recall some discussion or postulation that the insignia in question may have been to denote a clerical position, and to that effect the "three chevrons and diamond (or lozenge, probably a better period term)" should properly be referred to as an orderly sergeant's rank insignia, and not necessarily a first sergeant's rank insignia...which of course is somewhat counter-intuitive, since the hugest majority of the time (if not all the time, since I cannot furnish any examples of otherwise) they are one in the same. The argument, as I recall it, was that the 1st sergeant was a position in the line (right of the company, &cet); the orderly sergeant was a function in the administration of the company, and "by convention" for lack of a better term, the orderly habitually assumed the 1st sergeant's position in the line. Ergo, the lozenge on the chevrons in effect denoted "a paperwork guy". Again, this is out-loud thinking and idea sharing, not gospel.

Perhaps some drill-heads, paperwork gurus or others with a lot more at hand in their brain-pan than I can give some better insight...

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: corporal stripes

Hallo!

While there may be some specific units, or former miitia units with their own "Customs of Service," "1st Sergeant" and "Orderly Sergeant" are the same position in name, function, and placement in and out of "line."
(Ex: Kautz's "The 1865 Customs of Service for Non-Commissioned Officers and Soldiers.")

The only insignia difference among company level sergeants is the diamond for the 1st Sergeant.

Curt
Who had an ancestor who served as a 5th Sergeant (Right General Guide).
When orders came reducing the number of sergeants to four, he was demoted to corporal, causing some hard feelings and pay dispute.)

[tjfitz]

Re: corporal stripes

I recently viewed a photograph of a Western Frontier Indian Wars-era U.S. Army soldier wearing rank insignia that looks like Corporal stripes with a diamond above, and at first I thought it was a First Sergeant's rank. However, after doing some research in the Register of Enlistments, United States Army, I learned that the man wearing the stripes had been discharged from the Army because of disability in January 1880. His first enlistment, which also ended in a discharge for disability, was in May 1879, and he was a Corporal on discharge. (His rank at the time of his 1877 discharge was Sergeant.) So this brackets the photo between those dates. The photo was taken at Ft. Randall, Dakota Territory, and according to a history of the post, the unit stationed there between those dates was the U.S. First Infantry Regiment. The photo is part of a Corps of Engineers brochure on Fort Randall, and can be seen as a .pdf document at https://www.nwo.usace.army.mil/html/...ryBrochure.pdf
The photo I refer to is on page 2 of the brochure, and is the group photo at the lower left part of the page. The Corporal in question is seated on the viewer's right. His name was Willifred Warriner, 1856-1934. When I enlarge the photo it certainly looks to my eye that there are two stripes on his sleeve, not three. I have a second photo of Warriner, definitely wearing two stripes of a Corporal, but the photo is cropped so that I can't tell whether there is a diamond above the stripes or not. An inscription on the reverse of that photo dates it March 25, 1876.

[Dan Munson]

Re: corporal stripes

Hello,

I'll throw this in because it doesn't look like anyone else has.

I am mot entirely sure what Chris (post #6 above) means when he says that the positions of "lance corporal" and "lance sergeant" were not "OFFICIALLY" recognized in the U.S. Army until the 1890s. The following is excerpted from the Revised (1861) Army Regs:

971. To give encouragement to the recruits, and hold out inducements to good conduct, the commanding officer of the depot may promote such of them as exhibit the requisite qualifications to be lance corporals and lance sergeants, not exceeding the proper proportion to the number of recruits at the depot. These appointments will be announced in orders in the usual way, and will be continued in force until they join their regiments, unless sooner revoked. No allowance of pay or emoluments is to be assigned to these appointments: they are only to be considered as recommendations to the captains of companies and colonels of regiments for the places in which the recruits may have acted; but such non-commissioned officers are to be treated with all the respect and to have all the authority which may belong to the stations of sergeant and corporal. (See also Kautz's discussion of these positions in para. 306 of Customs of Service for NCO's, etc.)

No insignia are referenced to denote these temporary rank positions, and no "pay or emoluments" accrue to the holders. So maybe this is what Chris meant by "official". Still, the Army Regs of 1861 acknowledge these (albeit temporary) ranks and give them "all the authority which may belong to the stations of sergeant and corporal" while the positions are in force. Sounds fairly "official" to me.

[Mike Willey]

Re: corporal stripes

Completely hypothetical.....but it could be a ranking from a militia manual.

I know when the first companies were formed in my hometown there are references to
"3d lieutenant" and "ensign".

One of the guys slated to be a 3d lieutenant was pretty vocal about not getting the rank when the dust settled. He ended up as an NCO for a while.

FWIW

Mike Willey
late of the 49th Ohio and Coffee-coolers

[Lee Ragan]

Re: corporal stripes

Mike,
In regards to the "Ensign", rank: it was used at least in a limited way by the Confederate Army. One of my GGGGrandpappys was elected (or appointed), to the rank of Ensign in the 8th Texas Cavalry (Terry's Texas Rangers). We have a muster roll that indicates this. He was for a long time 5th Sergeant of E company of that regiment and made Ensign late in the war.
My understanding is that in the Army, an Ensign was a commisioned officer whos duty was flag bearer. I guess making those guys a Sergeant wasn't enough to compensate being a a very distinct target on the battlefield.
In the modern British Army, the regimental flag is borne by an officer and escorted by sergeants. If I'm not mistaken, the Brits use the rank of Ensign for this man who bears the colors.
As far as I know, this Army rank of Ensign was only used by the Confederates and not the U.S. Army.

[Joe Walker]

Re: corporal stripes

Now that the all the items on page 131 are at the AHC, perhaps Gordon Jones can tell us the man's name and then we can see what his compliled service record has on him. If his unit is known, (1st Ga) chances are his name is known. Since there have been other "guesses" posted already, my guess his rank insigna is the pre-war Georgia Militia regs, and the photo most likely pre-dates the inclusion of Georgia troops in the CS army (pre-requisition by Davis). Someone with access to the old regs might could check this out.

Joe Walker